Worsening insurance crisis

[drrich2]

The concept of a water taxi for divers is not always the case; in fact, most of the non-resort dive boats I've been on have had a DM on board, often in the water; definitely not just a taxi service to the site. There is clearly some diver-operator duty of care involved, even with no training going on.

Yes, and unfortunately providing such useful services might open a business up to more liability.

Some dive operators (I'm thinking of my trip on a California liveaboard; what I've read of the dive culture suggests it was fairly typical in this) act more like water taxies. Some dive professionals (e.g.: a DM) might be on board, and provide a dive briefing, but no guide service is provided.

There are other operators elsewhere that tend to provide guide service, either routinely (e.g.: Rainbow Reef Dive Center in Key Largo) or as an added charge option (e.g.: Olympus Dive Center in Morehead City, NC).

If liability reduction puts more pressure on dive op.s, I wonder to what extent it's viable to try to shift their business more toward the 'water taxi' model, and how much good this would do them?

 

[mr_v]

I do not have a professional license. Years ago I stopped my DM education shortly before it began because I put the numbers together and realized one thing: being in the industry is a financial burden for most professionals. To put it mildly, you need to be independently wealthy if you want to make your ends meet and enjoy life as an instructor. However, there are better ways to enjoy life.

The business is has many issues. Insurance is one. Not putting enough value on education and training is another. Effectively, a rec dive instructor is basically a gear salesperson who offers training as a loss leader. Of course, there are exceptions like qualified and good tech instructors, but they had to start somewhere. To anyone who wants to enter the business and make it a career, I strongly recommend sitting down with an accountant or a financial professional. You'll appreciate you daily "boring" office grind when you find out how much you may lose teaching scuba.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

One thing I'd like to see divided up in this discussion is dive students vs. divers.

That makes sense, though I would like to understand the basis for the increase in insurance costs for charters. @Wookie if you wish to engage in this conversation, what do you think were the primary factors in increasing insurance costs? Lawsuits for failing to meet USCG requirements or not helping divers in distress which may or may not be due to their own poor training/abilities?

I know one thing is certain that a student I had in my class when I taught at a shop last had such a bad attitude and was completely uncoachable. He joined the next month's class under a different instructor who certified him. If I saw him walk onto the boat, I'd walk off and tell the boat captain/charter to keep my money. I'm out. Though that likely would result in a very interesting conversation because they trusted the divers that were my former students.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

That makes sense, though I would like to understand the basis for the increase in insurance costs for charters. @Wookie if you wish to engage in this conversation, what do you think were the primary factors in increasing insurance costs? Lawsuits for failing to meet USCG requirements or not helping divers in distress which may or may not be due to their own poor training/abilities?

I know one thing is certain that a student I had in my class when I taught at a shop last had such a bad attitude and was completely uncoachable. He joined the next month's class under a different instructor who certified him. If I saw him walk onto the boat, I'd walk off and tell the boat captain/charter to keep my money. I'm out. Though that likely would result in a very interesting conversation because they trusted the divers that were my former students.

I think if insurance companies knew what REALLY went on in the scuba industry the premiums would be a hell of a lot higher than they are now.

 

[GiraffeMarineSalvage]

I think if insurance companies knew what REALLY went on in the scuba industry the premiums would be a hell of a lot higher than they are now.

It's a numbers game, they might cringe at times (for sure..) but as long as premiums paid exceed claims made any insurance agency will be happy...

 

[rmssetc]

I think if insurance companies knew what REALLY went on in the scuba industry the premiums would be a hell of a lot higher than they are now.

What makes you think that they don't know?

As much as the elites here bemoan the state of diver training, from the insurance company point of view, it is still a viable business to write those policies. How many accidents are there that involve students and become insurance payouts?

I think the game changer would be lawsuits arising after incidents to certified divers, diving outside of a class. If those suits named the certified diver's instructor, shop, and agency, then the number of annual lawsuits-- and payments-- would be much higher.

As you can probably tell, I am not a lawyer, dive instructor, or insurance salesperson. Maybe these lawsuits do happen, but they don't get discussed here.

 

[GiraffeMarineSalvage]

To combine eric sedletzky and rmssetc"s thoughts together: insurance companies only "care" about the bottom line (for State Farm it's cheaper to buy judges State Farm’s Judge - Ethics Unwrapped) but most insurance companies simply have a good analysis of risk/reward and revenue... Prove you are a lower risk in your industry and there is a market to serve with favorable profit margins which hopefully is responsible to their insured (made money for nothing for a number of years but unlike a "good neighbor" it's well known state farm is simply false advertising...
DAN is awesome to the point of simply hoping they stay as they are and should be..

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

A few years ago I spoke to a lawyer that consults for DAN. Allegedly there were 3 training incidents being litigated/settled that never made the media.

 

[GiraffeMarineSalvage]

A few years ago I spoke to a lawyer that consults for DAN. Allegedly there were 3 training incidents being litigated/settled that never made the media.

Which overall is a win for all parties? (Hopefully...)
ie diving is worth trying if you haven't done it before and if sh.it goes wrong your entire economic future isn't in ruin?

 

[Subfiend]

The concept of a water taxi for divers is not always the case; in fact, most of the non-resort dive boats I've been on have had a DM on board, often in the water; definitely not just a taxi service to the site. There is clearly some diver-operator duty of care involved, even with no training going on.

The “just a taxi” analogy for dive boats is an absolute lie. I covered this five years ago in a presentation I gave at TekDive. I have never been involved in a case where I saw this argument work - to the contrary. The same goes for “personal responsibility.” It does not absolve negligent operators from liability. It may reduce liability through comparative negligence, but it does not get you off the hook.