Worsening insurance crisis

[rmssetc]

Heart disease is the leading cause of death in the US by a fairly wide margin (cancer is second).

Here's a Modest Proposal: Insurance companies should lower rates for SCUBA-related professionals as a means of encouraging more people to take up SCUBA, as having someone die suddenly while diving costs the insurance company less money than long-term treatment for heart disease or cancer. Over time, the divers who remain are more fit and better at managing risk, and will be better customers for the insurance company.

 

[drrich2]

As a customer, I'd want to see those additional screening questions in advance.

So would I. If I traveled far, with flights and hotel bookings, to dive a foreign destination, and had a medical form with all 'No' checks or a health care provider clearance to dive form, and somebody still denied me services (assuming I didn't show up 500 lbs, red-faced and huffing from walking across the room, etc...), I'd be mad. That person probably wouldn't reimburse me the cost of my trip. Word gets around.

Dive tourists already face a number of risks that can derail their highly anticipated, highly expensive trip that may've been scheduled during hard to secure vacation time - flight interruptions, COVID-19, ear infection, bad sprain or broken bone pre-trip, middle ear infection or bad accident on trip, death in the family, etc...

If I have a choice of 2 dives op.s; I know one will accept my paperwork as is, no further questions asked, and the other is going to interview me in person (I'm guessing when I get there? Or will this be by Zoom interview?) to decide whether to let me dive, I'm going for the first shop.

There are people with sufficient 'fame' to get away with practicing the latter way, I'd imagine - prestigious instructors, etc..., so it might be a workable business model for them.

 

[txdamselfish]

50-60% of all underwater fatalities involve underlying medical conditions, both known and unknown. Maybe it’s time to have an honest discussion about fitness and diving? I will never fault an operator for turning away an unfit diver. I’d take that bad review on Trip Advisor over a dead diver case any day.

Is there an list somewhere that the public can see these statistics about the 50-60% underwater fatalities? - edit - I did find the annual DAN diving report, is this where most of the data is from? DAN Annual Diving Report 2020 Edition - NCBI Bookshelf

For the last 2 years, I bring my DAN med form in when I get my annual and have the doc sign off. Is this the usual way for most divers? Are there other concerns that we need to be aware of or find a DAN doctor to sign off?

 

[rmssetc]

I bring my DAN med form in when I get my annual and have the doc sign off. Is this the usual way for most divers?

Exactly what I do.

There are additional pages in the form (beyond what you'd show a dive op) that have instructions for a physician -- that's been helpful because none of my doctors who've signed the form in the last ~9 years had much of a clue about diving.

In my personal case, I'm not aware of any conditions or personal history that would lead me to get a more thorough workup from someone who is familiar with diving, so I'm OK with the cursory signature -- enough to honestly satisfy a dive op or instructor. YMMV.

 

[kensuf]

Exactly what I do.

There are additional pages in the form (beyond what you'd show a dive op) that have instructions for a physician -- that's been helpful because none of my doctors who've signed the form in the last ~9 years had much of a clue about diving.

In my personal case, I'm not aware of any conditions or personal history that would lead me to get a more thorough workup from someone who is familiar with diving, so I'm OK with the cursory signature -- enough to honestly satisfy a dive op or instructor. YMMV.

Due to my history of DCI (pre-PFO closure), me three. Added bonus, my GP is a diver.

 

[Subfiend]

In the first two cases, who is getting sued?

Everybody involved in the fatal dive.

 

[Subfiend]

Do you know if, in these first two examples, insurance companies regularly make payouts because of lawsuits/settlements? At least in the US, approximately two-thirds of people are either overweight or clinically obese. Heart disease is the leading cause of death in the US by a fairly wide margin (cancer is second). If insurance companies are seeing claims on these types of cases, I don't see why they should be paying out (at least in terms of liability insurance; life insurance is another issue). Likewise, if someone lies on their medical form, why should a dive pro's or shop's liability insurance policy come into play? The form is intended as a CYA for the pro/shop. If it doesn't actually cover anyone's rear-end, then what's the point?

Most of the cases I have defended recently involve these issues (underlying and undisclosed medical conditions). All of the cases were settled. Cases settle for a variety of reasons, but the reality is the cases settled. I have one diving case that will go to trial this fall. That is a diver error case and I look forward to defending it at trial.

 

[Subfiend]

Is there an list somewhere that the public can see these statistics about the 50-60% underwater fatalities? - edit - I did find the annual DAN diving report, is this where most of the data is from? DAN Annual Diving Report 2020 Edition - NCBI Bookshelf

For the last 2 years, I bring my DAN med form in when I get my annual and have the doc sign off. Is this the usual way for most divers? Are there other concerns that we need to be aware of or find a DAN doctor to sign off?

There are several studies that support this figure, plus it is the same number in the diving fatality investigations I am involved in. Some of these incidents are in the studies, some are not, but this is the percentage I routinely see.

Regarding personal fitness, you don't really need a form to tell you whether you are fit to dive. I can tell you after I walk my dogs whether I am fit to go diving today, because I usually end up having to chase the little one before he gets hit by a car and I am winded. But, in general, you should choose a physician that has a thorough understanding of diving and hyperbaric medicine and then discuss your particular medical issues with this physician. You also can do your own research. For example, study up on immersion pulmonary edema, return to play after having COVID, coronary artery disease in men over 40, and the side effects of the prescription medicines you take (which are often magnified underwater). Be sensible. If you have the flu in February, stay out of the water until April. Your general fitness could be good but your periodic fitness may be poor due to that mid-winter cold you just could not kick. Etc., etc. Don't make the mistake of thinking you will be fine in April because you were fine last October. I see this A LOT in fatality files.

 

[txdamselfish]

Thank you Subfiend for the information, I wanted to find the studies to research all the medical lingo, but your reply gives me a place to start.

This diving hobby is supposed to last us until the golden days, I want to make sure we are prepared and not putting ourselves in harms way.

 

[Outbound]

Most of the cases I have defended recently involve these issues (underlying and undisclosed medical conditions). All of the cases were settled. Cases settle for a variety of reasons, but the reality is the cases settled. I have one diving case that will go to trial this fall. That is a diver error case and I look forward to defending it at trial.

Then that's a huge problem. Insurance companies are never going to lose money. If they have to make payouts due to settlements with litigious families who think that someone should be held accountable because dear old dad decided to let himself go over the years and still went diving with a bad ticker and kicked the bucket underwater, they are just going to pass that cost on to the policy holders. If shops can't afford the premiums and decide to get out of the business as a result, the insurance companies don't really care. Or, if the actuarial charts and business model start to indicate that it's bad business to continue to offer liability insurance to the dive industry, they'll just stop doing so. I'm not an expert on insurance and I'm not in the legal profession, but I'm going to assume that one of the main reasons for settlements and payouts is because in the short-term it's often more expedient to go that route. In the long-term, however, it screws over the dive industry. But the insurance industry doesn't really care about the dive industry. And, for every family of a person who died of an underwater heart attack (for example), I'm sure there's a line of lawyers waiting to try to squeeze a settlement out of the situation.