Worsening insurance crisis

[Subfiend]

Think this through. Why would my insurance company care about my interpretation of an arbitrary agencies standards that aren't published?
OW cert is for 60', it is in writing. I run with it. I'm not looking for gray areas that I can operate in.

As someone who has worked as a defense lawyer for the diving industry for nearly 30 years, this is the smartest way to operate.

If anyone thinks insurance companies are eager to defend the claims against you without looking for ways to deny coverage, you have been underwater for too long.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I don't see that arguement.
I see it as incredibly clear. Spelled out word for word.
Maximum depth of 60'

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I always held to the belief that if you were acting in a professional capacity, and some sure the hell are only acting like pro's, that the standards for dives applied whether it was a training dive or not.
That was always just my personal belief based on the fact that if something were to happen and a student was injured or worse, someone is going to be scrutinizing every possible way to punish me.
Taking an OW diver beyond 60 ft as a DM or Instructor leading the dive is just throwing them one more round for the cylinder to aim at me with.
And with the proliferation of quickie courses and unqualified instructors turning out muppets who shouldn't be out of the pool, unless I trained the person, we are not going below 10-15 ft until I see that they are not a danger to themselves or others.
The first fatality that I got involved in with witnesses, autopsy reports, and computer print outs from the divers computer was just such a case.
An instructor acting as a guide/DM took 7 people on a planned 100 ft wall dive. Two of those had just completed their last two OW diver checkout dives a couple of days before.
One of them did a two minute ascent from 302 ft.
Had this instructor been forced by standards, the law, morals, or ethics to scrap that plan and take them on a 30-35 ft reef dive, it's likely no one would have died. No one would have had to witness the aftermath. And a woman would not have lost her fiancée.
My own personal belief is that standards, even loose ones that set an instructor up to be thrown under the bus that is typical for certain entities, should be adhered to anytime a dive pro is leading divers.
I can count on both hands the number of people I'm willing to buddy up with for most dives. And on one, the number I'm willing to buddy up with on tech dives.
I am also able to count on one hand the number of people I'd be willing to guide on a dive that I haven't seen in the water previously or have just met in a controlled environment. That number is zero.
And that level of risk tolerance is why I kept my classes small and at the length of time they were.

 

[Subfiend]

Let me try to make this clear with a basic lesson from the first week of law school. A wrongful death or injury claim is a negligence claim. There are four elements to a negligence claim:

1. The defendant had a duty to the plaintiff/victim;
2. The duty was breached;
3. The breach caused an injury or harm; and
4. Damages resulted from the injury.

The first two elements can be satisfied by showing the existence of an industry standard that was violated. If a training agency establishes a depth limit for a particular certification level, the victim’s lawyer will argue that this is the standard that sets the duty. If the training agency says the diver is qualified to dive to a depth of 60 feet, the victim’s lawyer will argue that the depth should not have exceeded 60 feet, even if the injury was a sea urchin sting that occurred at 65 feet - something that could have happened just as easily at 30 feet.

 

[noserider]

UK Insurers are very clear this is from Aviva, travel insurance and covers the scuba add-on. Basically they will insure you to 30 metres, if you have done the advanced or deep courses.


"You’re already covered for diving up to 15m in depth, but with this optional cover, this is extended to 30 metres (as long as you’re qualified).

Cover applies to recreational scuba diving up to a total of 31 days while you’re away.

Unfortunately, you’re not covered for technical diving (for example free diving or cage diving). You must be accompanied by a qualified diving instructor or dive master, and follow all the safety guidelines while diving."

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

If anyone thinks insurance companies are eager to defend the claims against you without looking for ways to deny coverage, you have been underwater for too long.

Home, medical, auto, all the same.

 

[cerich]

Open Water divers and 60 ft...

We can argue it forever on Scubaboard, the reality is that every single days thousands (likely tens of) of open water certified divers are brought to and/or guided on dives deeper than 60ft.

You think the insurance companies and agencies don't know this? They do.

Not every agency in the industry is committed to following standards, I say that as someone that has sat on the board of the RSTC and is bound by a confidentiality agreement regarding discussions around that very issue.

Insurance.. we are headed for the cabbage patch folks, like general aviation in the 80's. It's obvious.

Will diving continue? yes, will it shrink a LOT more? Yes.

Is the insurance issue going to force prices so high that diving can't be viable? Yeah, based on current model. It doesn't have to, far from it, diving has actually never been cheaper in inflation adjusted dollars, but we as an industry thought we could market to the masses, that was a massive mistake.

 

[MidOH]

All my OW dives are in the 80' range.

Only the week of my certification, with the group I cert'd with, did I stay less than 60'. Our books clearly stated training in less than 60'. Not limited to 60', IIRC. But it makes sense at that time. You just cert'd these people, itll look bad if you chum them 3 days later in 120'.

Only noticed increased air use and ndl clock ticking faster at 80+. Diving was easy as usual.

 

[cerich]

All my OW dives are in the 80' range.

Only the week of my certification, with the group I cert'd with, did I stay less than 60'. Our books clearly stated training in less than 60'. Not limited to 60', IIRC. But it makes sense at that time. You just cert'd these people, itll look bad if you chum them 3 days later in 120'.

Only noticed increased air use and ndl clock ticking faster at 80+. Diving was easy as usual.

You were trained to dive in environments similar to those you trained in with regards to depth, temp, and the whole list of stuff that varies among agencies and text books and over time. But depth was ALWAYS on the list. The OW standards for the course are max depth 60. When you are certified, there are no standards that apply when you go diving without a dive "pro" (instructor/divemaster/AI). By going deeper than 60 ft you are exceeding your training and recommendations, but you aren't "breaking" any standards.
That has been the same since I became certified in 1981 and instructor in 1994

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

Directly from RAID as it relates to the Open Water 20 certification:

Once certified as an Open Water 20 diver, you will be able to dive in an environment similar or better to that which you certified in, with a buddy, to a maximum of 20 meters/ 65 feet.

There is no wiggle room here for you to dive deeper than 20m/65'. There is a max depth post certification that you are to abide by.

As an instructor, I absolutely refuse to take divers beyond their certification levels no matter what they tell me. I have had divers tell me they are OW certified but have done plenty of dives between 30-35m. I say ok but with me, they will stay within their certification limits and at no time are they to go deeper than me.

I also had a commercial diver who wanted to dive with me. Said he did working dives to 50 plus meters. I said great, can I see your recreational certification. He had none. I told him I would be happy to take him on a try dive to a max depth of 12m/39' or we could do his OWC so he would not have any issues moving forward. As a commercial diver, the course should be easy and we could likely get through it much quicker than a normal student. He said and I quote "thanks but no thanks, I don't need the cert. I am already a great diver and I will find another dive center that will take me diving" Fine with me!! Would I have liked the revenue? Hell yeah but no way in hell am I putting my livelihood or the dive center on the line for him or for anyone. It is safety first with me and many divers have chosen to dive with me due to just that.

 

[John Bantin]

I have just received a notification from Curtain Bluff in Antigua that it is discontinuing scuba due to the inability to get insurance (liability cover). It says this is happening all over the Caribbean. (I don't know if this is true.) However, the big payout by PADI in the Linnea Mills case must be giving insurance companies pause for thought. Does anyone know of any resorts that are discontinuing scuba services for this reason? Presumably, those with sales offices in the US will be at the forefront, and of course, many independent scuba centers will self-insure (not insure).