Will Air Integration in dive computers replace the SPG?

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Brilliant 500th post in this thread, Gary.

There were past mods that fought like she-wolves to keep this one forum warm and fuzzy for newbies. Face it, it is over. ScubaBoard is a frat club. And yes, that alone is my only fascination with "Q". Fundamental respect.

I still have a few scars from her that I secretly treasure, helped me grow...
 
I work at a dive shop for several years. At one point we were getting two or three AI units returned for service due to failure every couple of months. As I posted earlier I had a buddy's fail on my last dive. I'm sure most work just fine but I'd rather stick to what I know is working. I'm not really a dive dinosaur but I do sometimes miss diving without batteries.

That's my impression/experience also.... and my guess is that many others share that experience. Hence, why AI has been around for 20 years and is still a minority equipment choice.

"I'm a survivalist", so I want to see a technology proven before I am willing to trust in it on a technical dive. It has to be well proven also... as it already loses in merit on cost and added capability.

Some have petulantly demanded 'hard data', but they seem to fail to understand that the burden of proof lies with those who argue for the reliability of AI. I have stated clearly, "I question the reliability of AI"... that's a question, not a claim. You can't 'back up' a question... and it isn't "BS" to ask a legitimate question.

"Here dude, eat this wild fungus.... eat these wild berries..."

"No way man, I don't know if they are toxic. Can you show me they are safe?."

"That's BS dude... prove they are toxic... if you can't prove your concerns you'd better eat them.."

AI isn't going to directly kill divers, not even technical divers - as there are safeguard protocols and procedures that mean gas volume isn't critical life support information. That said, we know that accidents happen in chains... and adding links to the chain increases the potential of event. For recreational divers, that may be an acceptable risk. For technical divers, it is generally not.

Choosing to remain with a mechanical AI is merely erring on the side of caution until a technology has proven itself. The added issues of cost and necessary functionality simply support that stance.



 
Kev,
you are flogging a dead horse. Someone out there agrees with your methodology... unfortunately, none of them are here.... Re-explaining it over and over is not going to change anything. Doc has almost a half century of unbent diving. So I would venture to guess that he has a pretty good system he is happy with. so do I, the question is: Will AIW replace the SPG.
 
Frustrated going to a back-up SPG when a Suunto Vytec WAI would intermittently not sync pre-dive or at worse during the dive. So Iearned to work smarter in metric with the SPG alone & ditched the WAI.
Kev,
you are flogging a dead horse. Someone out there agrees with your methodology... unfortunately, none of them are here.... Re-explaining it over and over is not going to change anything. Doc has almost a half century of unbent diving. So I would venture to guess that he has a pretty good system he is happy with. so do I, the question is: Will AIW replace the SPG.
Until its reliability, economy and simplicity of maintenance is equivalent or superior to the SPG for the same basic instrument function, current answer is no for electronic Wireless AI.

-----
(35 years diving experience, and you can't comprehend the ease of working smarter with "one bar per minute per ATA" either, CT-Rich):

A novice to advanced diver nominally has a pressure SAC rate of 2bar to 1bar per minute per ATA at best given a particular full cylinder supply.

For gas consumption at depth, you really don't need AI to perform the simple four operator plus, minus, multiply & divide arithmetic , on such easy starting cardinal integers like "1" or "2" (or even in between like "1.5 bar/min per ATA" --real numbers to no more than two significant figures for that matter). The only instruments needed are a bottom timer or Dive Computer, and a bar unit SPG to confirm an easy calculation you can do in your head.
 
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Some people...

Look I carry a line cutter on my rig at all times. I don't use it on most dives. However if I do need it then it's there. not on the boat where it is useless. Its the same with the functions on a WAI computer.

Only last week I was on a dive in a place known for strong currents where we dive regularly. This time we're hit by an unexpected mother of a flow. We'd already had 1 down current and a couple of up currents. I didn't need a computer to tell me I had an elevated SAC rate. I knew. One look at my contents and dive time told me my consumption was 30% above where it would normally be. What it did tell me was my remaining air time (or rather it confirmed what I instinctively knew based upon experience) and allowed me to make a judgement whether to surface then or get into a better position.

When you're rock climbing in a current there are more important things to be doing then maths calculations sometimes its nice to have that data there if and when you want it especially when you need to be thinking about something else.

Of course only 5% of my dives are in conditions like this, but I suppose I only use my line cutter on 5% of my dives too
 
I'll point out I was hoping to and at one point we were extracting some good thought and creativity about the FUTURE of WAI. We've had some good suggestions like piezoelectricity.

Currently cost and reliability seem to be the biggest sticking points, today. Cost will come down. Hell, I've said it before, many manufacturers are now offering the transmitter for "free"" or at least at cost built into the price of the computer.

Reliability is something that is hard to gauge. It's been pointed out we don't have any data. It's all anecdotal. One thread or group of people may tell you, as I have, WAI has worked flawlessly. Others will tell you they've had trouble with it. The problem is we don't know if and when the tech has gotten better. We don't know if a lot of the reports were based on user error. Battery door not being closed properly, battery in the wrong way which screwed up the circuit, etc. My WAI has a big warning about putting the battery in wrong. Looking at manufacturers forums is not a good gauge to determine failure rate. For every one of those posts, there could be an equal amount of failures of SPG's which wouldn't be reported like a computers tech would. And I'll point out again, one of the ways an SPG fails... can lead to death, the stuck needle. Rare? Yes. But it still happens. I've never heard, despite searching, a story of WAI pressure readings getting stuck and telling the operator they had more gas than they actualy do. The most common issue I'm aware of is intermittent data loss. Which usually corrects itself on the next round of transmission. Has yet to happen to me on my "new" computer.

Anyway, does anyone have any more creative ideas about WAI? What they would like to see from WAI in the future? Perhaps, we can even entertain some creative thought and talk about the types of procedures a tech diver could implement when using WAI with multiple transmitters. No need to argue about what it is today. Be a little creative and think about what WAI could be in the future. If your dive computers algorithum could calculate exactly how much gas/type you have consumed could that be beneficial in the deco calculation? What are some other good things that could come from this tech?
 
Only last week I was on a dive in a place known for strong currents where we dive regularly. This time we're hit by an unexpected mother of a flow. We'd already had 1 down current and a couple of up currents. I didn't need a computer to tell me I had an elevated SAC rate. I knew. One look at my contents and dive time told me my consumption was 30% above where it would normally be. What it did tell me was my remaining air time (or rather it confirmed what I instinctively knew based upon experience) and allowed me to make a judgement whether to surface then or get into a better position.

This is precisely the problem with depending on ATR and SAC information. I will assume that your computer calculates SAC based on gas consumption since the dive started and the average depth. ATR is then momentarily calculated based on depth and SAC. I have had tanks heated in the sun to a high temp e.g. high pressure. As soon as we hit the cool water the pressure drops a couple of hundred PSI or more. Our SAC is always high on these dives, which may be good in your situation. Less drastic but the opposite can also happen. But now lets see the issue, you are bouncing up and down in the currents. Your SAC is constantly changing. Your depth may be constantly changing. The amount of effort to get to your start point may have been easier at the outbound and will be harder inbound. And more. Assuming SAC is an average, it will respond slower to current conditions. You might have had great SAC at the beginning of the dive and then terrible SAC in the current. The SAC being used in the calculations will be lower then what it is now. Could also be the opposite here too. Using ATR might return you to the starting point with excess gas (good) or not enough gas (bad). Because you cannot determine the overall situation until back at the starting point, you cannot determine which it will be.

A better method for a dive, especially challenging ones is to use the rule of thirds. Using 1/3 outbound, you call the dive at 2000 PSI (3000 tank), and have 2/3 to get back. I did not need ATR and in fact, depending on ATR may have caused a gas outage. As you stated, you used a lot of instinct here which also indicates why ATR is not a panacea solution.

In the recreational world, I am all for AI but it does not replace using basic principals of diving. SAC and as a consequence ATR is a tool. It is subject to large errors and miscalculations.

In the technical world, SAC is used for planning. One a dive is started, a turn pressure, often a mid point pressure, max time and max depth are used. The turn pressure can be based on rule of thirds or another principal but it is set to know when to end the dive. A higher SAC rate will end the dive sooner. A lower SAC rate will do nothing to the dive as it will end from either the turn pressure or max time.

The information from AI is great but it has limited value. I actually do recommend AI for new divers, including my daughter's boyfriend. To the OP question, eventually AI will replace SPG in recreational diving. Cost is still high, complexity still high, potential issues are still high. Like a lot of 'fancy' BCDs, it is a limited benefit addition but it will be more common. The bigger issue is that I do not believe wireless AI has reached a level of dependability where the 'average' diver can work with it when it has problems. I too often see divers struggling with how to configure their computer. I would hate to see these same divers figuring out why their wireless AI is not syncing. I see many divers afraid to open battery compartments. These will be the same divers that wait for a battery failure to get the dive shop to replace it. On and on. Divers like NetDoc will know their gear inside and out. They will have few issues. Divers that are not 'technogeeks' will need help or more when their gear goes south. Also, wrist mounted computers are liable to be lost or forgotten on a boat. I have seen a Predator almost go over the side. I myself have forgotten to put a wrist mounted BT on and left it tied to my gear for the dive. A SPG console needs service when the regulator needs service. Any other issues are common to diving gear in general, including hose rupture. A good service technician will verify hose condition/age and replace the airspool during a service period. That is about the amount of work the SPG takes. AI takes more service with use or storage as you must replace batteries, remove batteries to protect the electronics etc.

As for the knife - It is a piece of safety gear. Like a SMB or whistle, you may never need it, but when you need it, you NEED it. In 1000+ dives, I have used my knife a couple of times even so, I now carry 2 - 3 knives with me. The SPG/AI is not safety gear. It gives required information throughout the dive, specifically the current pressure in your tank. Any other information is irrelevant to the dive. If you need to know your ATR then you are not a safe diver and you are using ATR as a crutch. That information should only be secondary to your dive.
 
The SPG/AI is not safety gear. It gives required information throughout the dive, specifically the current pressure in your tank. Any other information is irrelevant to the dive. If you need to know your ATR then you are not a safe diver and you are using ATR as a crutch. That information should only be secondary to your dive.


You are misinterpreting what I wrote (or meant to write) For me none of the functions on my AI are a necessity (yes I even have a redundant SPG) my point was that it was good at this point to have the data.

The displayed SAC rate is just a curiosity during a dive. It is only of interest for data afterwards (changes in SAC rate averaged over time, different equipment etc) My comp does instant and average. My point was that I could have carried out the maths but the computer already had, and in a task loaded scenario this was useful as a backup to what I had in my head. A second opinion if you like.

Actually the ATR is very conservative, again on other dives I've looked at it as a curiosity - indeed until this 1 dive never used it let alone rely on it.

I know the rule of 3rds although we don't turn. Our SOP is to by on the surface post safety stop at 50 bar or 50 mins which ever is the sooner. We have our Rock Bottoms on a slate.

All this I know I am just trying to point out that occasionally having all the data in one place has benefits
 
@CuzzA

In answer to yoru post;

I'd like to see the ability for buddy air monitoring to take off. - I personally know that for my wife I look at my contents and add 20-30bar and I'm in the ball park with her gas (and vis versa for her) but for newer divers I can see where it can give a degree of comfort. Also for instructors they can still as their pupils for their gas contents but have one eye on them too

I've seen on more than one occasion people purposely lying to the dive guide and not telling they're at the minimum - some my find that useful too

Surface alarm. If the transmitter sees no gas flow or the pressure dropping etc it alarms to protect someone rolling in with their tank switched off or not fully on.

Alarm for wrong mix wrong depth?

O2 & CO2 sensor?

If it detects someone not breathing or shallow breathing it sets off a location pinger (probably after alarming the user first)

Much like mobile phones a standard charging cable.

It would be interesting to see if breathing rate/ workload gas mix and consumption could be fed into the algorithms to refine them further.

Now a computer should not replace training but they can serve as an additional safety net.

Yes you should be able to disable functions you don't want to use and I'm sure there will be some who don't see the need. Fine. I'm sure if they were given the chance they wouldn't have airbags in their car as they're such great drivers they or their family wouldn't need them
 
Frustrated going to a back-up SPG when a Suunto Vytec WAI would intermittently not sync pre-dive or at worse during the dive. So Iearned to work smarter in metric with the SPG alone & ditched the WAI.
Until its reliability, economy and simplicity of maintenance is equivalent or superior to the SPG for the same basic instrument function, current answer is no for electronic Wireless AI.

-----
(35 years diving experience, and you can't comprehend the ease of working smarter with "one bar per minute per ATA" either, CT-Rich):

A novice to advanced diver nominally has a pressure SAC rate of 2bar to 1bar per minute per ATA at best given a particular full cylinder supply.

For gas consumption at depth, you really don't need AI to perform the simple four operator plus, minus, multiply & divide arithmetic , on such easy starting cardinal integers like "1" or "2" (or even in between like "1.5 bar/min per ATA" --real numbers to no more than two significant figures for that matter). The only instruments needed are a bottom timer or Dive Computer, and a bar unit SPG to confirm an easy calculation you can do in your head.
Okay, Netdoc, we need some officiating. I have gone back and counted the number of times Kev has explained his methodology of using data from an SPG. We have seen it explained 13 times and I figure that may actually be some sort of record? Even after I pointed out that he has no audience for what may be a perfectly legitimate system he continues to go out there swinging. I will give him props for determination (or OCD?).

I remember when I was a new teacher and I came up with a lesson that tanked and I would be stuck teaching it over and over..... because for that one topic, I was a one band.
 

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