ThatsSomeBadHatHarry
Guest
CompuDude:
sorry for the inclarity. i meant that it seems like a harness is a bit too much work just for holding up a belt.
Why weight integrated bc's?
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sorry for the inclarity. i meant that it seems like a harness is a bit too much work just for holding up a belt.
diverdan214
Contributor
I found belts to be a hassle. About halfway through training I bought my own kit which featured integrated (don't seem to be many bc's now that don't at least give you the option) tried it, and found it to be a lot less hassle and more comfortable. You might say what's so difficult about a belt, but I just don't seem to get along with them. I tried out a few different designs of bc, but I was set on integrated from the first dive with one.
Yeah, this is how I did it, not really that much bigger a problem than holding onto a weightbelt during remove donning drill for that. I learned drills with belt and integrated and don't see the difference between holding onto your belt for dear life (or at least dear not-bent) and holding onto your kit for the same.
Really other than 3/4 pool dives I've never done it another way, so its just the way it is, not awkward. Any drill is awkward if you don't do it that way, no?
Maybe I missed something (sorry if I did), but if you're neutrally weighted, just dumping some of your weight should make you positive, no? Personally I only keep about 1/3 of my weight in non-ditchable pockets, I've heard some people say it should be half and half. And really it should be a more controlled ascent than if you ditch your belt with all extra weight.
fishoutawater:
I agree that having all of your weight in you BC poses a hazzard, especially when diving with a significant wet-suit. I choose to dive a mixed configuration.
As to why so popular...
*Some diver have no hips and prefer not to wear a weight harness.
*Trim pockets allow for getting some weight up over the lungs. The same function as a SS backplate or an extra cam band and weights on the cylinder.
*A weighted BC will behave better on the surface since some of the weight is directly coupled to the lift source. With a non integrated BC the weight belt is trying to pull you down and out of the BC giving it a tendency to ride up.
As for don & doff it is generally still taught and the method is to hold the BC very firmly and closely so you stay down with it.
The closer the diver and rig can each be to neutral the better IMO.
ZPete
diverdan214:
The difference is apparent when you think past your training exercises.
The posibility of getting out of your rig to deal with an entanglement, check for a leak or a number of other matters is a real posibility. See the latest Dive Training Magazine.
I don't know when or why you would intentionally remove a weight belt at depth. Even the belt recovery skill has it's real value on the surface after a buddy retrives yours from the bottom should you loose it. The exception would be a belt so lightly loaded it borders on beng optional or one caught before it got away.
Pete
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I like weight integrated BCs and BP/Ws, however every time Im tempted to use one I remember this scenario: My buddy and I came across a diver (live, breathing, struggling, scared fece-less) who was badly entangled in a very large net that was set in a area of significant current. He had approached the net from the upcurrent side, observed a large dead Mako Shark in the net and gotten blown into the net and badly tangled. He was diving solo.
Eventually, had we not happened upon him, he would have run out of air and had to ditch his tank with its weight integrated BC. When he did so, under the buoyancy of his 7mm wet suit, hed have shot straight up into the net that was over his head (the float line was moored and the lead line was free). Then he would have drowned. Coming at the net as we were, from the down current side, it was rather simple to get him untangled, which we had to do several times until we could get him to the bottom of the net and lift the lead line so that he could get under it.
Now sure this was a stupid diver who had made a series of mistakes. The only reason hes alive today, with an exciting story to tell, was the pure dumb luck that two divers who had worked around a lot of nets, happened upon him in his moment of greatest need. Im quite sure that two standard recreational divers would have wound up tangled also.
So I say to myself, how would I have handled that situation? Could I have taken off my tank? Sure. Could I have hung onto the tank? Likely! Whilst unfouling the tank? Im not sure! What would have happened if I lost my grip after removing my tank and weights? Likely dead!
Yes its one incident, and it will likely never occur again. But the thing that kills divers, esp. highly experienced ones is a series of problems that checkmate the response options the diver has available. Loosing the ability to remove my tank and, at the same time, loosing my ability to maintain neutral buoyancy and at the same time loosing the availability of two hands well that causes me concern as it removes all response options that are predicated upon any one of those three criteria.
Eventually, had we not happened upon him, he would have run out of air and had to ditch his tank with its weight integrated BC. When he did so, under the buoyancy of his 7mm wet suit, hed have shot straight up into the net that was over his head (the float line was moored and the lead line was free). Then he would have drowned. Coming at the net as we were, from the down current side, it was rather simple to get him untangled, which we had to do several times until we could get him to the bottom of the net and lift the lead line so that he could get under it.
Now sure this was a stupid diver who had made a series of mistakes. The only reason hes alive today, with an exciting story to tell, was the pure dumb luck that two divers who had worked around a lot of nets, happened upon him in his moment of greatest need. Im quite sure that two standard recreational divers would have wound up tangled also.
So I say to myself, how would I have handled that situation? Could I have taken off my tank? Sure. Could I have hung onto the tank? Likely! Whilst unfouling the tank? Im not sure! What would have happened if I lost my grip after removing my tank and weights? Likely dead!
Yes its one incident, and it will likely never occur again. But the thing that kills divers, esp. highly experienced ones is a series of problems that checkmate the response options the diver has available. Loosing the ability to remove my tank and, at the same time, loosing my ability to maintain neutral buoyancy and at the same time loosing the availability of two hands well that causes me concern as it removes all response options that are predicated upon any one of those three criteria.
fishoutawater:
Cavers use V weights and P weights making the rig "weight integrated" and no weight belt is used.......
I teach students with either a weight integrated BCD or a wing/BP.....most if not all enjoy it once it's explained how to rest at the surface.
In my 25 years of diving the only time I ever removed my weight belt is when demoing how to remove and replace it... Someone commented about leaving one shoulder on when removing a bcd. That's exactly how I demo remove and replace scuba unit under water.
Ron
mwhities
Contributor
I'm VERY new to the diving world and my say may not have any meaning, but I prefer, almost am REQUIRED to have a WI BC. I purchased an Oceanic Probe LX with the two WI pockets and two trim pockets.
The reason I say I'm "required" is that I only have one-arm. In my confined pool dives, I did have to don/doff a weight belt. (I could do it all with no problem, minus the fact that when I tried to tighten the belt, I would pull to hard and the "adjuster" side of the belt would pull off. So my "buddy" had to go under me, as I sucked in my gut, and tightened the belt and secured it.) Well, WI BC came up and I investigated it quite a bit. I've been told that it's highly unlikely that I'd ever have to drop the weights. Well, that's all fine and dandy and wouldn't be to much of a problem if my buddy was always there, but he might not be. I know my "assigned" buddy should/wolud probably "help" me, but who really would want to take time away to help a one-armed "buddy" that can't don his own weights?.
Either way, I went with the WI BC. With the talk on here about taking off the BC with WI, I had to do that, plus, pull the WI weights out and put them back in. When I took off the BC in my OW check out dives, wearing a 3mm shortie, I did "float" up a little, but I was able to redon the BC with no big issues. I believe that anyone with two arms will have no problem with taking it off, cutting net, or any other reason as you can still continue to hold onto the BC with your other hand.
I myself would imagine myself threading one or both of my legs into my BC's arm holes to not float up and away from it. I guess it would be comical, but I'd be able to free it from whatever I might be stuck on.
As for the weights, I had really no issues with taking them out and replacing them. In the OW, of course I already had all of my own equipment, I wasn't required to use a belt. I figure the safest for me is the WI BC. I'm hoping to never have to be in that situation, but I know that I will be able to remove them and add them for whatever reason I might need to.
So I guess it all goes back to how you are in shape/size and anything else that might be a factor. Try both ways before you purchase your equipment. I did and found the WI works the best for my particular situation.
Thanks,
Michael
The reason I say I'm "required" is that I only have one-arm. In my confined pool dives, I did have to don/doff a weight belt. (I could do it all with no problem, minus the fact that when I tried to tighten the belt, I would pull to hard and the "adjuster" side of the belt would pull off. So my "buddy" had to go under me, as I sucked in my gut, and tightened the belt and secured it.) Well, WI BC came up and I investigated it quite a bit. I've been told that it's highly unlikely that I'd ever have to drop the weights. Well, that's all fine and dandy and wouldn't be to much of a problem if my buddy was always there, but he might not be. I know my "assigned" buddy should/wolud probably "help" me, but who really would want to take time away to help a one-armed "buddy" that can't don his own weights?.
Either way, I went with the WI BC. With the talk on here about taking off the BC with WI, I had to do that, plus, pull the WI weights out and put them back in. When I took off the BC in my OW check out dives, wearing a 3mm shortie, I did "float" up a little, but I was able to redon the BC with no big issues. I believe that anyone with two arms will have no problem with taking it off, cutting net, or any other reason as you can still continue to hold onto the BC with your other hand.
I myself would imagine myself threading one or both of my legs into my BC's arm holes to not float up and away from it. I guess it would be comical, but I'd be able to free it from whatever I might be stuck on.
As for the weights, I had really no issues with taking them out and replacing them. In the OW, of course I already had all of my own equipment, I wasn't required to use a belt. I figure the safest for me is the WI BC. I'm hoping to never have to be in that situation, but I know that I will be able to remove them and add them for whatever reason I might need to.
So I guess it all goes back to how you are in shape/size and anything else that might be a factor. Try both ways before you purchase your equipment. I did and found the WI works the best for my particular situation.
Thanks,
Michael
Buoyant1
Contributor
For my OW class I used a non-integrated and a weight belt...that didn't last long! BUT when I DID get the weight integrated, and field tested it in a pool, my instructor told me to take it off and put it back on.... then do it again.
It wasn't graceful, or anything, but I did it!
Practice works...
It wasn't graceful, or anything, but I did it!
Practice works...
To me, it's all about simplification. Don't do a lot of divemastering these days but when I did never saw any huge advantage to the weight integrated BC's and our students were always asked to use conventional weight belts during their training regardless of the BC style they owned.
I don't own a weight integrated BC and I've been diving since 1971. I have a weightbelt with top zipper and drainable pouches and I have always been able to get solid or shot weights from the dive operator. I distribute the weights so that they are balanced around my waist and have never had a comfort or ditch/don problem.
Would I ever consider a weight integrated BC ?? ...yes, but not as long as my current BC is working well. Why would I ?? ...because that would be one less piece of gear I would have to stick in my dive bag and drag around. No other reason.
Haven't checked lately but the last time I looked the weight integrated BC's were substantially more expensive than the basic jacket BC's. That alone was enough to coax me to avoid the weight integrated approach last time I bought a BC.
'Slogger
I don't own a weight integrated BC and I've been diving since 1971. I have a weightbelt with top zipper and drainable pouches and I have always been able to get solid or shot weights from the dive operator. I distribute the weights so that they are balanced around my waist and have never had a comfort or ditch/don problem.
Would I ever consider a weight integrated BC ?? ...yes, but not as long as my current BC is working well. Why would I ?? ...because that would be one less piece of gear I would have to stick in my dive bag and drag around. No other reason.
Haven't checked lately but the last time I looked the weight integrated BC's were substantially more expensive than the basic jacket BC's. That alone was enough to coax me to avoid the weight integrated approach last time I bought a BC.
'Slogger
Being a new diver myself, I was able to talk to a lot of qualified people as to the best system for my needs. I did my initial training with a weight belt in saltwater with 14 lbs. It was only a resort course, so when I returned to the states I bought my own kit with a probe lx WI bc. During the second part of the OW session, my instructors made me remove/replace weight both ways to make sure I was competent. I will tell anyone, replacing two weight pouches at depth is a struggle. I'm an increasingly safety minded individual, and without the back mounted trim system it would be difficult to keep proper bouyancy with my quick release pony bottle system. As I mature into more technical aspects, I'm sure I will just go steel doubles and bp/w for my quarry commando and Great Lakes adventures. As it is now, I can hold all my penetration gear, lights, Hang bag and spares in my bc without giving up a streamlined system.
The same peice of gear goes with me to warm water and does a great job with limited gear. I bought as streamlined a kit as I could safely justify, including the XS2 safe 2nd on the inflator. I can always strap on a pony if I'm going deep or in an overhead environment, so it's very flexible. If I ever need to ditch my bc, I can pull the pin on my pony, grab a weight pocket, fan out and breath all the way up.
The same peice of gear goes with me to warm water and does a great job with limited gear. I bought as streamlined a kit as I could safely justify, including the XS2 safe 2nd on the inflator. I can always strap on a pony if I'm going deep or in an overhead environment, so it's very flexible. If I ever need to ditch my bc, I can pull the pin on my pony, grab a weight pocket, fan out and breath all the way up.
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