Why the SPG is clipped to the hip ring.

[Blackwood]

Why backup mask in a pocket instead of clipped to your chest?

What is the motive for this continuing discussion?



Why point A and not point B?

Good reasons were given for A versus B, and no good reasons (beyond ease of reading) were given for B versus A.

Your SPG is backup gear. Get it out of the way. Can you just look down and see it if it's on your chest? Maybe. Is that important? No.

If you feel that you need immediate un-hindered access to your SPG, get a wireless transmitter and put it on your wrist or in one of those fancy thousand dollar masks. On your chest it could interfere with more important things, it could push against your BC deflation button, it could block access to your backup light, it could confuse the issue when you go to check how much gas is in your bottles, etc..

On the hip, it's out of your way, but easy enough to get to. That's a better solution. Is it perfect? Probably not. But all configurations are give and take, pro-and-con.

 

[elan]

I've also found that the hip d-ring, since it swings freely, makes it easy to push an attached bottle aside in order to feel your way around the d-ring. This makes it the better choice for managing snap positions. The chest d-ring is usually held down by the backup light, making it less ideal for such tactile navigation.

Very good point. So so far I have found at least 2 big advantages on the hip over the sholder

 

[elan]

Lol, thanks for brining your extensive cave and technical experience to the discussion. Oh wait... you don't have any.

I'm down for debating stuff, but you have no relevant experience. Entanglement IS an issue in small cave (and wreck too, I imagine). I've seen something as benign as cookies and arrows clipped off get caught in the line.

Streamlining is obvious. If something is sticking out (spg), its not streamlined as is obviously adds drag (surface area). I don't need a PhD so figure this out.

The DIR equipment configuration is completely applicable to just about every situation. OW, wreck, cave, technical, scooter, whatever. Its been shown time and time again.

And BTW, "JJ and crew" have done a fair bit of wreck diving as well. Britannic maybe?

Come on people let's just carry out the discussion with logical points, so called "argument of the authority" usually just prevents from understanding. Doing something just because XYZ said so and he was doing it more than ABC might be valid but does not bring understanding on the table.

 

[PfcAJ]

Experience does matter. If you've never done a multiple stage cave dive, on what grounds do you stand to comment on it?

One of the big advantages to the DIR equipment config is the law of primacy and not having to unlearn stuff later on. By having experience in stage/deco/cave diving, one can comment as to the effectiveness of the debated procedure.

The entire argument FOR having the spg on the hip is that it works though all diving. Those with experience are chiming in to reinforce this. Its not a "position of authority" argument, but one of practical experience.

There is no reason to repeat the mistakes of others so you can "learn" for yourself.

 

[ucfdiver]

Come on people let's just carry out the discussion with logical points, so called "argument of the authority" usually just prevents from understanding. Doing something just because XYZ said so and he was doing it more than ABC might be valid but does not bring understanding on the table.

The subject in question is rambling on about stuff that he has no practical experience with, and a method that is *not* DIR inside the DIR forum.

Any system that's designed to work best over a variety of situations is going to have minor short comings at the extreme level of any type of diving, for instance DIR doesn't work for side mount cave, and no one is using DecoPlanner to cut tables for 8 hour dives at 280ft in Wakulla. But for the majority of ocean, wreck, cave, ow, and any other type of diving, DIR has proven time and time again to provide the easiest transition with minimal skill or gear changes. At the extreme level in deep cave where gas goes near instantly, muscle memory is an invaluable skill. Those of us who aren't doing those types of dives yet are building just that in systems like Manatee, Ginnie, JB, Hole, etc, where double stages and scooters are skills that you NEED to practice and learn. The cool thing is, our same system transitions perfectly over to 30ft reef dives in the Keys, and one day when we've gained needed experience, it will transition to end of line Eagles Nest if we have the desire.

So you can nitpick and find a minor issue with the (any) system, but if you're not doing the dives, you run the very real risk of overlooking something important.

 

[M_Bipartitus]

If you read my posts, I've never claimed that the hip d-ring isn't a good location, just that many of the arguments listed are weak or unsubstantiated. Not agreeing with specific arguments doesn't mean I'm arguing in favor of something else.

I would love to see a hydrodynamic simulation that moving the SPG from one location to another makes a difference in how streamlined you are in the water. But claiming that it does without quantitative data is unsupported. I wish physics were this easy:

Streamlining is obvious. If something is sticking out (spg), its not streamlined as is obviously adds drag (surface area).

But that is the simplest approximation to a very complicated problem of flow. Flow near the D-ring is almost certainly turbulent (the stage clips and valves are still there), so it can't just be claimed as "obvious." Since we are requiring specific experience to comment on specific things, I would indicate that one should have at least a masters in Physics, Marine Engineering, or a related field, to make a comment on these hydrodynamic considerations.

 

[Anti-Hero]

Nice strawman argument.

We really need a good facepalm emoticon.

 

[PfcAJ]

Thats great. We already stated that having a spg in the chest is a bad idea since there is already too much going on with that D ring. The next option was "what if there aren't any stages".

In that case, having an spg on the chest (sticking out) is certainly less streamlined. You're a PhD student, right? But not a technical diver? Stick to academia, this isn't up your ally at this point.

 

[Rec2Tek]

Just because cave-divers do it doesn't mean it's done right. If JJ and crew had been fervent wreck divers there likely would have been other conclusions drawn along the way.

When is the last time you dove the Britannic? JJ and the crew have been there twice.

 

[Gombessa]

If you read my posts, I'v never claimed that the hip d-ring isn't a good location, just that many of the arguments listed are weak or unsubstantiated. Not agreeing with specific arguments doesn't mean I'm arguing in favor of something else.

You're not getting dogpiled for advocating a different position, but for making statements to which you admit having no practical experience to draw authority from. And the claim of weak or unsubstantiated arguments? Someone mentioned the possibility of a line trap, which is nontrivial for cave divers, and your response is that it is unlikely, or that cave divers don't need to get close to the line? So you'll appeal to authority in the case of hydrodynamics, but you'll dispute the issue of cave hazards against someone who actually has cave training and actively dives caves?

But claiming that it does without quantitative data is unsupported.

Are you really going down this route? Note to self--do not mention arguments against bondage wings.