Why the Prejudice about DIR or GUE

[jeraldjcook]

Does PADI or any other agency teach divers to breathe the octo in the water or to practice air donation on every dive?

Practice sharing air, no. Test you octo, yes. At least that is how I learned. Any PADI instructors here?

 

[GreenDiverDown]

In the third example, apparently non-DIR divers can experience a ripped diaphragm by entering the water. What? Who has ever heard of such a thing. If the octo works right before you jump in, it’s going to work when you check it right after you jump in.

Soggy isn't suggesting that someone might tear the octo diaphram by jumping in the water. He is suggesting... and quite realistically, I might add... that someone might not detect a torn diaphram until after they are in the water. Most folks don't check their octo with negative pressure/air off.

 

[lamont]

I have a question about the long hose. (the one used for scuba) I have tried to swim with someone with the short hose in a non emergency situation. It was difficult. I can see the advantage to the longer hose in my case. Someone posted it would be dangerouse to dive the 7' without proper training. Is that training available without going through a DIR class? Also can a non DIR guy post in the DIR forum and ask questions or for clarification or is that not reccommended. I'm new here sorry.

It helps to get a little bit of guidance from someone who knows what they're doing first. When you gear up you need to make sure the long hose isn't tangled. A classic problem is to put the bungee necklace on after the long hose and to wind up with about 6" to donate. That problem is fixed through procedure, but you need to have someone take you through it. There's also some subtle aspects to how you hand off the regulator to optimize for handing off a regulator the correct orientation and easily usable to the OOA victim. You also want to avoid taking the long hose and wrapping it around you head multiple times. Managing an actual OOA underwater takes a little bit of practice as well. The first time you do it you're likely to get your arms tangled up as you go for the backup reg and trap the long hose. It helps to have a more experienced diver there to help untangle the mess. There is a learning curve, but it doesn't take too much.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Does PADI or any other agency teach divers to breathe the octo in the water or to practice air donation on every dive?

Not that I know of ... but in my NAUI instructor materials it does say that I should teach my students to check that their octopus is working as part of their pre-dive check, and it also says I should encourage students to practice basic safety skills, especially air sharing, regularly.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[jeraldjcook]

Hate to say it, but I see divers ... and even dive instructors ... dragging octos all the time. Worse, I see them stuffing octos in BCD pockets, where they're not visible. Still worse, I know a dive instructor who uses a bolt snap to clip his octo to his chest D-ring.

These are not recommended practices ... not by any agency that I know of ... but they are examples of how some people dive. Had a class pass me in the water just the other day ... and not a single one of them (including the instructor) had their octo in the golden triangle. They were all dangling ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I agree and I have see the same thing. But all non-DIR people should be lumped together with the lowest demoninator of the sport. I will also conceed that DIR are probably more likely to follow the rules than non-DIR as it your name. But have you never seen a non-DIR person without a dragging console or octo? I know I have, quite a few. Especially those of use who own our own gear. Dragging the stuff bangs it up real quick.

 

[jeraldjcook]

Soggy isn't suggesting that someone might tear the octo diaphram by jumping in the water. He is suggesting... and quite realistically, I might add... that someone might not detect a torn diaphram until after they are in the water. Most folks don't check their octo with negative pressure/air off.

Touché. I must admit that I had not considered.

 

[Dan Gibson]

I won't go into a diaphragm ripping, but they can become unseated and water leaks in real fast. A quick check underwater is a very good idea and far superior to checking it on the surface where it might not be so obvious. How do I know, it happened to my buddy just before entering Little River on a stage. He checked on the surface and didn't catch it. Underwater he caught it real quick during predive checks. This is a diver who has far more experience than most and he didn't catch it on the surface. I doubt most divers would catch it and that would be bad if it's the backup and at depth during an OOA.

You might want to think through some of this a litle more before trying to make an example of someone else. Then again, you go ahead and dive anyway you want. It's your life, but I would recommend the quick check underwater.

If the octo works right before you jump in, it’s going to work when you check it right after you jump in.

 

[TheRedHead]

Not that I know of ... but in my NAUI instructor materials it does say that I should teach my students to check that their octopus is working as part of their pre-dive check, and it also says I should encourage students to practice basic safety skills, especially air sharing, regularly.

Teaching the S-drill would certainly take care of all of those.

 

[Soggy]

You missed the whole point...just because it breathes on the surface does not mean it will breathe well underwater. A ripped diaphragm can breathe fine on the surface, yet be unuseable underwater. Octos fall out of their holders and drag through the muck. This stuff *happens*. None are even remotely unrealistic scenarios. Go look through the scubaboard gallery (when it comes back up); there are countless examples of unsecured octopi dangling around. Call it what you want...it is a situation that does happen with an octopus configuration and basically cannot happen with a bungeed backup and long hose.

My 'textbook' case can go any way you want it to go. If there was a problem, the dive would have been aborted before it even starts because of the procedures involved and new problems are far less likely to occur because of how it is configured. Bungeed backups don't fall out, and the gas donation procedure works in every situation from open water 30 ft reef dives all the way to 300 ft deep penetrations 20,000 feet back in a cave to deep cold water wreck dives. That cannot be said for an octopus configuration. I can't think of any reason to dive any way other than that which has the lowest potential for failure, works in all situations, and the best chances for survival.

My mouth is always easier to find than something strapped to my chest. My neck is easier to find than something strapped somewhere on my chest. The long hose and bungeed backup are far more streamlined and less prone to failures. These are things that are pretty much indisputeable.

Personally, I was taught (by SSI) to donate the primary, only we trained with AIR2s as our backup. I've always thought that the whole concept of the octopus was a bad idea...from day 1, long before I ever heard of DIR.

The long hose has only advantages over an octopus and no disadvantages. Just because you can't come up with a single valid reason why an octopus configuration is better than a long hose doesn't mean I'm on a high horse. It just means I won the debate.

I think these scenarios are a good example of why some people think DIR are up on their high horse, pontificating to non-DIR divers. Here are 3 examples of non-DIR divers who are doing everything wrong, and these are used as typical examples while the DIR example follows textbook procedures. There isn’t a single diving organization out there that would train someone to behave like the divers in 1-2. In the third example, apparently non-DIR divers can experience a ripped diaphragm by entering the water. What? Who has ever heard of such a thing. If the octo works right before you jump in, it’s going to work when you check it right after you jump in. And if you can rip a diaphragm during the dive, both are going to experience it. In my view, checking the octo before is just as good as after, and that is how other agencies train. If you have a problem with how the other agencies train, say so. Don’t say “See how stupid, irresponsible divers acting completely contrary to how they were trained by PADI act. Now compare that to our perfect model of our guys doing everything right.” You’re not comparing apples to apples. Compare best practices to best practices and it might be different.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I have a question about the long hose. (the one used for scuba) I have tried to swim with someone with the short hose in a non emergency situation. It was difficult. I can see the advantage to the longer hose in my case. Someone posted it would be dangerouse to dive the 7' without proper training. Is that training available without going through a DIR class?

Yes ... the rest of my post pointed out that the training is rather simple, but it's important to understand how the gear is supposed to function.

FWIW - many of my (NAUI) students adopt a long-hose configuration ... and the majority of them have not even considered DIR training.

Also can a non DIR guy post in the DIR forum and ask questions or for clarification or is that not reccommended. I'm new here sorry.

Yes ... non-DIR people ask questions in the forum all the time. What violates the posting rules is when people start providing non-DIR answers to those questions. If that's what the originating poster wants, they're best off putting the question out here, where all answers are acceptable.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)