Why the dislike of air integrated computers?

[Eric Sedletzky]

As I've noted, I've seen far more hose failures than I have seen transmitter failures, and I'm talking my own equipment! I call shenanigans on the 'known to be unreliable to start with'.

I've seen more quirky problems with transmitters than I've seen with hose failures.
The only thing I saw once was buddy's HP hose blow in the parking lot when we were gearing up which sounded like a shot gun blast. It was loud enough to made the Sheriff show up. The hose was probably 30 years old and should have been replaced years prior.
If hoses are checked frequently and replaced with quality replacements at least every 10 years there's nothing to worry about.
I have dived with several people that seemed to have trouble getting their AI systems to boot up and work. After several attempts they usually get it, but at a cost of wasted time and stress wondering if they'll get to dive.
To me AI seems to be a solution looking for a problem.

 

[The Chairman]

If hoses are checked frequently and replaced with quality replacements at least every 10 years there's nothing to worry about.

Dude, those four hoses that self destroyed in front of me over a weekend were less than two years old. Two different makes at that and I didn't go for cheap.

To me AI seems to be a solution looking for a problem.

A phrase looking for an intelligent application to be sure.

 

[Nemrod]

As I've noted, I've seen far more hose failures than I have seen transmitter failures, and I'm talking my own equipment! I call shenanigans on the 'known to be unreliable to start with'.

Again, as soon as the AI is robust enough that you will dive it anywhere, anytime on any dive no matter and WITHOUT a backup standard SPG, I am all over it.

I had a brand new HP hose failure a couple of years in Cozumel, it happens. It did not blow but it fizzed through two dives before I had an opportunity to replace it. I think it was kinked or damaged in my luggage. I also have seen the AI senders damaged in transit. Of course, probably the best thing there is to remove it during travel to prevent that potential and I should have and could have broken my reg down as I often and should do to prevent that exact damage.

And I have seen failure to sync and lost sync and then there is the issue of having batteries available and remembering between all the electronic stuff I already have which battery goes where and which ones are out of date or need replacing. And then there is being green, batteries go in landfills or worse get tossed into places they do not belong, a B&G SPG does not use any consumable components nor will it ever really become obsolete even though it seems a few are now calling the B&G SPG Vintage Equipment, yawn, meh.

N

 

[RJP]

In tropical 28 deg C waters, drift diving going with the current with minimal exertion touring the awesome reef walls of Palau, my pressure SCR (Surface Consumption Rate) becomes a personal best of 1 bar/min. [And do you really need an AI to work with unity factors like multiplying by "1" ??]

Most of my Palau wall dives are averaging 20 meters depth going with the drift current; 20 meters is 3 ATA (divide 20 by 10 and add 1 gives a depth in atmospheres absolute of 3 ATA).

Therefore 1bar/min multiplied by 3 ATA equals a depth consumption rate (DCR) of 3 bar/min at 20 meters. Checking my bottom timer every 10 minutes, I expect to consume 30 bar (3 bar/min multiplied by 10min equals 30 bar), and accordingly my SPG should read 30 bar less in that 10 minute time frame.

So by 30 minutes elapsed dive time at 20 meters, I expect to be down 90 bar or at half tank (AL80 full tank is 200 bar). At 40 minutes elapsed time, I'm ascending off the wall into the shallow coral plateau around 9 meters (down 120 bar from 200 bar total, or 80 bar remaining in tank). And finally at the 45 to 50 minute mark, I'm at 6m and my 3-5min safety stop with 60 to 70 bar left. I surface and I know even before looking at my SPG that I have around 50 bar remaining in my tank.

This is how you should actively use your SCR with your particular tank, knowing how much breathing gas you have left not only on pre-planning, but also during the actual dive at depth, real-time-on-the-fly --and you really don't need an AI for this at all ....just an SPG and a bottom timer or non-AI dive computer.

Or I can glance at my wrist and say "Huh... I'm at half a tank."

:d

 

[Kevrumbo]

For an AL80/11L per bar Cylinder, my Surface Consumption Rate (SCR) in pressure units is 2 bar/min (a nominal SCR that's acheivable for most recreational divers). Therefore my Depth Consumption Rate (DCR) is 2 bar/min multiplied by the depth I'm at in Atmospheres Absolute (ATA).

So if I'm at 30m depth -which is 4 ATA- then I know I'm consuming a DCR of 8 bar/min. After 10 min at that depth, I already know that my SPG will show a delta 80 bar down of air consumed.

Point is that you really don't need an Air Integrated (AI) Computer Function to monitor an arithmetic method as easily & intuitively applied as above. . .

Or I can glance at my wrist and say "Huh... I'm at half a tank."

:d

Sure Ray . . .I can do that as well you can to confirm what I figured for consumption is correct.

But again for myself, I don't need the extravagance of AI for a gas consumption algorithm I can easily explain & calculate like the above. . .

Hint: if you do the above SCR/DCR example in feet and PSI, then the use of an Air Integration Computer Feature would help with the cumbersome arithmetic of US Imperial Units.

 

[FinnMom]

I have a Suunto transmitter and have used it with VytecDS, HelO2 compters. It's really nice, but on a few occasions (maybe 3% of dives) it has refused to work for reasons I cannot understand to this day. So, I would never disconnect my normal pressure gauge because I don't want to miss a dive. I also would never had paid more than $50-70 for this, because it's real nice, but completely non-essential (see above => I have a normal pressure guage). I got my for free, attached to a used regulator set I was buying.

Most people probably dislike them because they cost hugely more than the traditional solution yet are not as reliable (even if it's 2% difference - that's potentially 2 extra dives missed out of every 100). Since they cost a lot of money, if you bought one without realizing the reliability issue, its discovery makes you feel duped. And dislike is born.

 

[Kevrumbo]

I have a Suunto transmitter and have used it with VytecDS, HelO2 compters. It's really nice, but on a few occasions (maybe 3% of dives) it has refused to work for reasons I cannot understand to this day. So, I would never disconnect my normal pressure gauge because I don't want to miss a dive. I also would never had paid more than $50-70 for this, because it's real nice, but completely non-essential (see above => I have a normal pressure guage). I got my for free, attached to a used regulator set I was buying.

Most people probably dislike them because they cost hugely more than the traditional solution yet are not as reliable (even if it's 2% difference - that's potentially 2 extra dives missed out of every 100). Since they cost a lot of money, if you bought one without realizing the reliability issue, its discovery makes you feel duped. And dislike is born.

Yes . . .that's why I sold my Suunto transmitter over nine years ago -because of unreliable synching- and went back to an analog SPG in Bar Pressure Units, performing the easier arithmetic method & calculation of gas consumption at depth using the more sensible Metric System, instead of US Imperial Units in Feet & PSI.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/blogs/kevrumbo/

 

[AfterDark]

I have a Suunto transmitter and have used it with VytecDS, HelO2 compters. It's really nice, but on a few occasions (maybe 3% of dives) it has refused to work for reasons I cannot understand to this day. So, I would never disconnect my normal pressure gauge because I don't want to miss a dive. I also would never had paid more than $50-70 for this, because it's real nice, but completely non-essential (see above => I have a normal pressure guage). I got my for free, attached to a used regulator set I was buying.

Most people probably dislike them because they cost hugely more than the traditional solution yet are not as reliable (even if it's 2% difference - that's potentially 2 extra dives missed out of every 100). Since they cost a lot of money, if you bought one without realizing the reliability issue, its discovery makes you feel duped. And dislike is born.

You make my point the technology is not yet ready for diving. Sensible divers know it and either do not use AI or like the features of AI but of course use a backup.

The same goes for dive computers and rebreathers the technology is not ready for prime time underwater on its own, unsupported. What are those OC rigs rebreather diver sling about? Backup; the evidence is unarguable.

 

[The Chairman]

The same goes for dive computers and rebreathers the technology is not ready for prime time underwater on its own, unsupported. What are those OC rigs rebreather diver sling about? Backup; the evidence is unarguable.

Actually, you don't understand techies. Redundancy is the mark of the sensible tech diver. I don't tech dive without at least three lights, two independent sources of breathing, two PDCs, two cutting devices, several spools, and yes, though this might be a stretch for some, two fins. It's different from OW diving, where all you have to do is ascend and the dive is over. We have contingencies and often we have contingencies for our contingencies. For us, backups are the norm and not the exception because we don't get to simply ascend when the caca hits the fanola.

Caveat: when I'm diving recreational, I usually use only one PDC, one transmitter and no B&G SPG. No such redundancy needed on that kind of dive.

 

[AfterDark]

Actually, you don't understand techies. Redundancy is the mark of the sensible tech diver. I don't tech dive without at least three lights, two independent sources of breathing, two PDCs, two cutting devices, several spools, and yes, though this might be a stretch for some, two fins. It's different from OW diving, where all you have to do is ascend and the dive is over. We have contingencies and often we have contingencies for our contingencies. For us, backups are the norm and not the exception because we don't get to simply ascend when the caca hits the fanola.

Caveat: when I'm diving recreational, I usually use only one PDC, one transmitter and no B&G SPG. No such redundancy needed on that kind of dive.

This isn't a tech section we aren't talking tech here this is rec diving and I am posting in that context. If you wish to change the context to make your point that's up to you. It doesn't however change the evidence that AI and similar technologies aren't ready to dive unsupported by backup. I solo dive and understand redundancy very well, so well in fact I understand when it shouldn't be necessary.

Perhaps you don't realize that I dove for years without a SPG just a J valve and learned to anticipate when the "reserve" would kick in. To this day I look at my SPG to verify what I have calculated my air supply to be, I can dive without a SPG or AI or even a J valve. A spg just makes things safer.