why not a poodle jacket

[crosing]

 

[Fish-R-Man]

I feel that cave diving is the only way to really hone cave skills. Having ambient light allows a diver to kind of cheat when communicating, navigating, and manipulating equipment (stages, line, lights, etc).

If this line of thought holds true, how does it apply to other forms of training? If you look at military and commercial pilot training, there is a ton of money spent on flight simulators that develop a pliots skill before they hand them the keys to a multi-million dollar plane. The same is done with commercial shipping. They use a system called a Visual Bridge Ship-handling Simulator. For the divers that live out of the local area for access to caves, we need other avenues to continue to keep our skill levels to what they should be to reduce our risk level once we do have the opportunity to travel for a cave trip. For the divers that live in the north Florida area, I have to wonder how they would practice their skills to dive outside of their local areas to reduce the risk factor.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Perhaps I misunderstood his ultimate goal.

I think the most valuable lesson a diver should get out of a cavern course is an understanding of why one should not go into caves without proper training and equipment. That alone makes it a valuable course. The cave courses after that are designed to prepare one for cave diving, and there is no point in taking them if that is not the goal.

While I agree with this, I'm with Lynne. There's no point in someone who doesn't live near caves/caverns to take the course if the intent is to get the skills. I teach the same skill set plus some other skills that are more focused on OW in my Intro to Tech course. Why add the overhead to it to add more stress if the intent is not to dive in a cavern?

 

[boulderjohn]

While I agree with this, I'm with Lynne. There's no point in someone who doesn't live near caves/caverns to take the course if the intent is to get the skills. I teach the same skill set plus some other skills that are more focused on OW in my Intro to Tech course. Why add the overhead to it to add more stress if the intent is not to dive in a cavern?

I fully agree. If you read anything different in what I wrote, then my communication skills are at fault.

 

[karstdvr]

It was a tongue in cheek comment you two

However, I don't think there's any standards on the degree of precision a student must have through the nss-cds or the nacd even at the full cave level. With the NSS-CDS training director taking students zero-to-hero never having dove SM before, it's almost a running joke around cave country. .

I can't judge the situtation where the instructor carried an individual "zero to hero",because I have seen some squared away divers who were more than ready to handle this,but I have seen the instructor stop at intro,and say you aren't ready to go on. If it is the running joke,was somebody there to observe it (the cave diving rumor mill is notorious)? I am not going to judge other agencies,but there are weaknesses in all of them. I will give credit to the CDS and NACD because they have a long mentoring process to become a cave instructor,plus the CDS has some stringent conservation guidelines built into their standards.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I can't judge the situtation where the instructor carried an individual "zero to hero",because I have seen some squared away divers who were more than ready to handle this,but I have seen the instructor stop at intro,and say you aren't ready to go on. If it is the running joke,was somebody there to observe it (the cave diving rumor mill is notorious)? I am not going to judge other agencies,but there are weaknesses in all of them. I will give credit to the CDS and NACD because they have a long mentoring process to become a cave instructor,plus the CDS has some stringent conservation guidelines built into their standards.

I attempted the NSS-CDS zero-to-hero route ... figuring that with over 2,000 dives plus NAUI Trimix II plus wreck penetration experience plus a buttload of dives below 200 feet I was ready for it.

Didn't make it past Apprentice ... not so much because of a skills deficiency but because my instructor felt I needed some experience at the Apprentice level to learn how to make better decisions. I agreed with his analysis.

Heading back tomorrow to (hopefully) finish the class.

Agency stereotypes are worthless, because the agency doesn't determine what you get out of a class ... you do. Put some effort into finding a good instructor, work your ass off, and be honest with yourself.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

Didn't make it past Apprentice ... not so much because of a skills deficiency but because my instructor felt I needed some experience at the Apprentice level to learn how to make better decisions. I agreed with his analysis.

Bob and I have the same instructor. I did not attempt to go zero to hero, but I did manage to go to apprentice (my goal) as he did. I was given the same advice about decision making (and awareness) as Bob. It took a lot of consecutive days of diving to get as far as I did. My path to apprentice took about the number of days advertised for the path to full cave. Both the instructor and I were exhausted by the last day, and he said he would try to schedule a day off in the middle of such a plan.

He told me that he had seen divers go zero to hero, but it was a very rare diver who came in having achieved a very high level in the open water. These would be trimix divers with a lot of such experience, including extensive wreck experience.

As for me, between apprentice and returning for the full cave certification, I practiced basic skills (like buddy searches and lost line searches) in a pool and open water. (You only need to close your eyes to get the mechanics down.) I did some dives in both low flow and high flow caves. It still took me longer and more divers than I hoped, but I had the foresight to schedule some extra time in case I needed it.

And I would wish you good luck, Bob, but I doubt you will need it.

 

[B Lo]

Let me begin by stating that I find the term "poodle jacket" to be pejorative...

That you find the term "poodle jacket" to be pejorative shows a profound lack of respect for poodles, widely regarded as one of the top two most intelligent breeds. They are loyal, intelligent, athletic, snuggly, and badass. It's clear that you aren't man enough to love poodles. It's okay, though. I understand.

 

[PfcAJ]

If this line of thought holds true, how does it apply to other forms of training? If you look at military and commercial pilot training, there is a ton of money spent on flight simulators that develop a pliots skill before they hand them the keys to a multi-million dollar plane. The same is done with commercial shipping. They use a system called a Visual Bridge Ship-handling Simulator. For the divers that live out of the local area for access to caves, we need other avenues to continue to keep our skill levels to what they should be to reduce our risk level once we do have the opportunity to travel for a cave trip. For the divers that live in the north Florida area, I have to wonder how they would practice their skills to dive outside of their local areas to reduce the risk factor.

Having been involved with a little bit of military training, I can say that a "craw, walk, run" training scheme is used, and the same is true with cave training. Skills on dry land, OW, then in the cave. The thing is, if you do them in the cave a few times, then take off to somewhere cave-less, how much better are you really going to get since you're at the "walk' phase by default?

Unless someone regularly uses skills for their real and intended purpose, you're going to plateau. Its probably good enough to get by and have good dives, but not as good as they could be. I feel that getting better is something we should all strive for, and maintaining skills in the "run phase" of higher just isn't practical. If it was, soldiers wouldn't do live fire exercises regularly, they'd just use blanks all the time. Its tough to learn to read a cave in OW.

 

[Doppler]

For most outdoor activities, there are some required bits of kit. Climbers, mountain bikers, paddlers, et al, all outfit themselves with the appropriate gear before attempting something "technical" which in each of the examples mentioned is a valid term to describe the activity's more complex form.

Overhead diving is technical and requires special kit of one sort or another... standard North Florida Cave Kit, sidemount, CCR and cave bailout... whatever your choice.

AN OPTION NOT on that list is a stab jacket and "single" tank... which I take to mean a cylinder NOT fitted with an H or Y valve.

Am I missing something. If the OP wants to take a course but is unwilling to make the commitments required, the outcome is predictable.