Why is this not the standard?

[DevonDiver]

Traditional BCs are much simpler....

sim·plic·i·ty /simˈplisitē/Noun:
The quality or condition of being easy to understand or do.
The quality or condition of being plain or natural.


also:
- free of secondary complications
- having only one main clause and no subordinate clauses
- constituting a basic element
- not made up of many like units
- free from elaboration or figuration
- free from ostentation or display

Simplicity comparison:
versus

...require no laborious adjustment period when renting to a new person or handing over during a class.

1) I wouldn't class 'threading a bit of webbing through a hole' as laborious.
2) Simplicity in set-up is one consideration. Simplicity and ease of use is another.
3) In the water (surely the most important place) is where simplicity and intuitiveness of operation count.

Set-up and adjustment is complication for the instructor. Ease of use, comfort, simplicity and intuitive operation is a benefit for the student.

Do we equip trainees based on instructor convenience.... or based upon offering maximum potential for the trainee??

That's pretty much the end of it.

Setting up a BCD is "the end of it"? Oh really?

 

[cascas]

Traditional BCs are much simpler and require no laborious adjustment period when renting to a new person or handing over during a class.

That's pretty much the end of it.

In the end... This is what you get...

Shoulderstraps get pulled to the max rendering the cumberband worthless, creating an ill fitting setup, and causing crappy balance.

BCD's are great for rec dives, but they HAVE to be properly adjusted EVERY time they are used. Looking around at the waterfront, the proper adjustment part rarely happens.

A properly fitted wing just fits every time after one proper adjustment...

You tell me, who will benefit ?

 

[DevonDiver]

BCD's are great for rec dives, but they HAVE to be properly adjusted EVERY time they are used.

A bit of contradiction there... how is something 'great', when it requires constant fussing and attention?

Jacket BCDs don't just HAVE to be adjusted EVERY time they are used (implies a single adjustment pre-dive), in reality they HAVE to be adjusted every time the user changes the volume of air in the BCD... because that effects the fit (unlike a back-mounted/BP/W design).

 

[Ste Wart]

I think it feeds from the scuba manufacturing industry - much better to sell every dive center 5 BCDs (1x each XS, S, M, L, XL) each time, than 1 BP/W (1 size fits all).

Also, why does the scuba manufacturing industry want to promote sales of metal backplates, which never need replacing?

... or single-piece harnesses, which can be user replaced for $20 in 5 minutes...?

Heck, if the scuba training industry all went unilaterally to BP/W for lessons and rentals, that alone blow a big hole in most manufacturers profits... and then many of those students/rentees would go on to buy a BP/W for themselves.... a primary piece of kit that'd never need a total replacement...

People wonder why BP/W isn't promoted in the scuba industry...? Seriously?!?

I think this a gross oversimplification.
Let's look at the amount of BP/W who also supply Regs, not many. HOG, Halcyon, Apeks spring to mind. When all manufacturers can supply a JBCD and Reg. Now when a Dive Center is seeking to purchase new kit they are going to look for a bulk buy of matching kit. For instance at my old shop in Oz we had all Aqualung regs and BCDS, the replacement kit was all Scubapro Regs and BC's. Why? Best deal and long term investment. With BP/W you can't get massive deals and savings because your are simply not buying enough, instead of 20 JBCD's you only buy 10 because they are adjustable, you lose all bargaining power with the supplier.
Also these things last. Aqualung Waves were pretty much the shop standard when I learned to dive, because they do the job, cheaply. On the odd occasion I have seen them binned it is only because of fading and fraying, but this is dive shop/student abuse not a fault in the equipment, a Wing would last equally as long. Thing is when it's time to upgrade, everything remaining gets sold off second hand and a new set of equipment comes in. Without a Reg & BCD package this becomes harder and BP manufacturers simply cannot offer this on the scale required by a small dive centres budget.
When a student asked a colleague of mine why their BC's differed so much, my mate replied 'you don't learn to drive in a ferrari'. Dive shops are not there to give you the optimal dive equipment, they are there to teach you to dive. If you anyone believes that learning to dive in a BP will instantly make them a better diver then I would like a couple of ounces of what they are smoking it sounds awesome. The instructor is the most important factor for an OW and how they convey information on basic dive skills. I did my OW in an awful lime green shorty wetsuit. Should I complain to a DC because their choice of colour in a wetty is not what the internet forums demand? No. I'm newbie, I need to understand Buoyancy, Ascents, Mask Clearing etc. I can learn about equipment later.

My Primer instructor adjusted a couple of students crotch straps in the water, but that was a fine adjust.

:dropmouth: Boundaries!!

 

[DevonDiver]

I think this a gross oversimplification...when a Dive Center is seeking to purchase new kit they are going to look for a bulk buy of matching kit. ...Best deal and long term investment...With BP/W you can't get massive deals and savings because your are simply not buying enough, instead of 20 JBCD's you only buy 10 because they are adjustable, you lose all bargaining power with the supplier.

I think that's debatable - on the basis of center size/purchasing etc.

However, the main point I was trying to make - in relation to this thread topic - was that dive center equipment purchase does not reflect a consideration that 'jacket BCD' is better or worse for the student - but rather, whether it is better or worse for the dive center budget. ;

Those who wish to implicate that the choice of jacket BCDs in the mainstream of the scuba education industry is on the basis of 'performance superiority' are way, way off the mark.

If you anyone believes that learning to dive in a BP will instantly make them a better diver then I would like a couple of ounces of what they are smoking it sounds awesome.

I agree... the choice of equipment doesn't make someone a better diver. However, it does play a role in how they intuitively develop skills and competencies.

If I was going to run a half-marathon, I'd choose running shoes/sneakers. I would not choose steel toe-capped and shanked heavyweight work boots.

Does choice of shoe make me a better runner? No.

Does choice of shoe allow me to run better? Yes.

The instructor is the most important factor for an OW and how they convey information on basic dive skills.

Still using the 'half-marathon' analogy...

If I hire a coach to teach me how to run that race, then the quality of that coach will have an impact on my performance. It will be one of many factors.

So... I hire Seb Coe to train me to run the half-marathon. The first thing he'd tell me is not to wear heavy workman's boots, as they'll significantly limit my performance. He'd advise getting the best appropriate running shoes, dedicated to the purpose, within my budget.

In a nutshell, quality of instruction is important. The motivation and mindset of the student is important. The natural aptitudes of the student are also important. BUT SO IS THE CHOICE OF EQUIPMENT USED.

 

[cascas]

I am sure you are right when talking about package deals...

regs when properly maintained can last many years. A BP will last a lifetime. A wing can endure years of abuse and is easily replaced. webbing doesn't cost a lot.
I don't see how using BP/Wings will be more expensive than using BCD's over a longer period of time...

I spent more on my first 2 BCD's in the first 7 years of my diving career then on BP/wings in the second 7 years... Sounds like easy math to me....

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Last week-end, Peter Guy took a picture of myself and TSandM wearing our primary BP/W singles rigs. Hers is my original DSS rig ... she's probably got close to 1,000 dives on it, and I put at least 300 or so on it before she got the rig. Mine is a Torus prototype that I've had since before that particular wing hit the market ... by now well over 1,200 dives on it. Both look like they'll go at least that many more dives before the wings need replacing.

Why don't shops promote this type of equipment? Simple ... because they'd go out of business waiting for you to come back in to replace it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[elan]

I have never met William Hogarth Main but I truly wish that he got one cent each time someone typed "Hog" or "Hogarthian" - it seems only fair.

His whole family could live in prosperity just of the regulator forum alone then

 

[billgraham]

Personally, I don't like when someone tells me there's "standard" gear for anything in diving. My own stuff has always been really different from what most people are doing and people still look at me like I've got two heads when I show up with the sidemount ccr. Try lots of stuff and see what works for you.

 

[cascas]

Try lots of stuff and see what works for you.

Do that, or follow the path where most mistakes have already been made by others and prevent making them yourself...

Life is all about choices...