Why I have decided to stop shopping for ANYTHING at the LDS

[twinpop]

This may be true but, at the LDS I took my OW course at almost every student in the class (around 10 - 12 if I remember correctly) bought there masks, fins, boots, and weight belt and weightsat the LDS. Now I know that the LDS was charging MSRP for everything the students bought. So by getting the students to buy the equipment "required" for the course, the LDS had to at least break even but I would expect that they made a profit.

And making a profit is a bad thing? do any of you work for a living? any business needs to make a profit in order to stay in business......hello? are any of you actually thinking before you write this stuff....? it is very simple...if the lds is nice and has reasonable prices purchase from them...as in any business if the person is a jerk, regardless of the prices, don't purchase from them. I will pay alittle extra in order to beable to talk to somebody and make sure I am getting the right thing.

 

[novicediver]

Ok smart *****, did I say I know everything about scuba gear? I said I know what I need. I am a warm water recreational diver and I know that I don't need anything fancy for my once a month diving habit. My OW instructor didnt teach me any of it, I picked a little up along the way talking to friends who dive and trying out their stuff. It isn't like you are going to get an objective answer from the shop anyway.




I don't need all the shops to stay in business, I only need one, and I don't imagine all of them going out of business.

 

[rje634]

And making a profit is a bad thing? do any of you work for a living? any business needs to make a profit in order to stay in business......hello? are any of you actually thinking before you write this stuff....? it is very simple...if the lds is nice and has reasonable prices purchase from them...as in any business if the person is a jerk, regardless of the prices, don't purchase from them. I will pay alittle extra in order to beable to talk to somebody and make sure I am getting the right thing.

Your taking my post out of context..
I was simply responding to someones statement that the LDS they know is losing money on their open water course. What my response was getting at was, that if you add in the profit that the LDS makes on the sale of the required OW equipement they are not losing money.
Where in my post did I say that making a profit was bad??

 

[friscuba]

Pants hit the nail on the head with how scuba equiptment sales should be. This is the way it was in the years before the LDS came on the scene. Scuba and air fills was sold by sporting goods stores. You got instruction at the local YMCA. No confict of interest. Back to the future.

If scuba retailing and fills and such went strictly the the Sports Authority and other sporting goods stores, that would be the death of Tech diving, DIR, and equipment beyond high volume US Divers stuff. You'd have guys straight off the street, or maybe transferring over from the bicycle department, selling a limited selection of dive gear to people who had little knowledge of scuba.

And people complain about the shop monkey now. Wait 'til they are stuck pruchasing gear where the ONLY person in the entire department has 15-20 dives experience, if that.

It'd be sort of like buying your computer equipment at Walmart. Fine for some, but that's about it.

Specialty shops are needed in this industry. Everyone complains about the price, but without them EVERYONE would be ordering mailorder or buying form the big retailers and the overall level of knowledge, and likely safety, of the industry would drop.

How many of you learned anything about scuba from a catalog store? My bet is you learned it from a specialized shop, or someone who learned from a specialized shop. Without them, an important link would be missing, and the industry/hobby/sport would be in trouble.

later,

 

[lord1234]

i doubt that it would be the death of "specialized" scuba skills. There would be a FEW specializing shops....thats about it.

 

[Scuba]

If scuba retailing and fills and such went strictly the the Sports Authority and other sporting goods stores, that would be the death of Tech diving, DIR, and equipment beyond high volume US Divers stuff. You'd have guys straight off the street, or maybe transferring over from the bicycle department, selling a limited selection of dive gear to people who had little knowledge of scuba.

Facts indicate otherwise. The majority of shops do not specialize in Tech diving, DIR, or equipment beyond high volume (insert name brand) manufacturers. How many...... No, are there any shops that solely outfit a new diver with simple hogarthian gear from the start. Many shops are profitable largely due to the supply of new diver recruits every year. A captive audience with little or no diving knowledge and in need of a whole set of gear. A significant amount of which will not see much use or soon be sold.

You do have a valid point about less than adequately qualified personnel selling gear. Those of us in this area can see this happen on occasion in a local sporting goods store that sells dive gear. But on the other side, we also see specialized dive shops that have a more limited gear supply, and such a biased presentation that it comes out a wash. Not advantage either way, in this matter, for the consumer. It could go either way.

If these shops depended solely or mostly on repeat customers for their survival and prosperity, it is likely they would learn to appreciate everyone walking into their store. And treat customers with the dignity and respect they deserve so they will want to come back.

It's amazing how many feel that not only do we need to support our hobby, but that we also have an obligation to support someone else's business interests. In some cases supporting a specific someone's business interests may be the only way some will be able or willing to engage in their hobby. But fortunately, for the majority of us that is not the case. If they want my business they will have to do it the old fashion way - earn it. And if their efforts go into loosing my business - they shall be appropriately rewarded, as well.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I'm sorry, Bob, but I don't buy into this one either. There just isn't that much maintenance that needs to be done. We have a top of the line Bauer at work, and while the initial expense was rather high, the maintenance is next to nil. We move a LOT of air through it in a years time, cubic foot wise. Even figuring it at $3 per fill, this thing has more than paid for itself in the last 5 years. From that point on, it's just electricity and inspections along with regular filter changes. We can pencil whip this thing to death, but in the end, regular air just doesn't cost that much.

It depends how you work the numbers. When I had a shop I figured a fill cost me about $25. However, we didn't sell much gas. All the local dive sites have a fill station on site and , with no employees (I couldn't afford them), my shop was closed on weekends because I was out teaching. The vast majority of the gas I pumped was to teach classes and the cost of the fill was included in the (way too low) course fees. So...If I took the cost of the fill station and the maintenance, subtracted a percentage of the utilization for classes and devided the rest by the number of fills I sold to people walking in for a fill, it was very costly. In the time I had the compressor and the shop I didn't never took in enough cash selling air fills to even cover the initial investment. How's that for a ROI.

The compressor was something that I had to have to teach classes. Most manufacturers also require you to be a full service shop (meaning that you sell gas and teach) in order to be a dealer. Owning a compressor is a simple cost of doing business for a dive shop just like renting or buying a building. The market for breathing gas alone where I had my shop could never justify the cost of a fill station in the first place. In some areas, it's just another loss leader.

Later of course the fill station lived in my garage where it was worth it's weight in GOLD. I wouldn't bother if I dived air at resorts or parks but to buy trimix for a Missouri cave dive or a Great Lakes wreck dive is not only outragiously expensive but unbelievable inconvenient given that I'd have to go to Chicago or Indy to get the gas and probably have to make at least two trips to do it.

 

[MikeFerrara]

If scuba retailing and fills and such went strictly the the Sports Authority and other sporting goods stores, that would be the death of Tech diving, DIR, and equipment beyond high volume US Divers stuff. You'd have guys straight off the street, or maybe transferring over from the bicycle department, selling a limited selection of dive gear to people who had little knowledge of scuba.

And people complain about the shop monkey now. Wait 'til they are stuck pruchasing gear where the ONLY person in the entire department has 15-20 dives experience, if that.

It'd be sort of like buying your computer equipment at Walmart. Fine for some, but that's about it.

Specialty shops are needed in this industry. Everyone complains about the price, but without them EVERYONE would be ordering mailorder or buying form the big retailers and the overall level of knowledge, and likely safety, of the industry would drop.

How many of you learned anything about scuba from a catalog store? My bet is you learned it from a specialized shop, or someone who learned from a specialized shop. Without them, an important link would be missing, and the industry/hobby/sport would be in trouble.

later,

Not even close. I didn't recieve any of my technical training from a dive shop. Most technical divers I know don't do much business in dive shops at all. That's simply because they aren't going to buy the lines about how you can't service your own gear, won't except some one refusing to sell them parts ect. They all service their own equipment, have sources for parts and many are even themselves dealers for certainn lines that don't require you to have a dive shop. Much of the technical diving community is seperate and very much independant of dive shops. Technbical diving is a whole seperate culteure that's barely on the same planet as most dive shops. True, with agencies like PADI trying to get into technical diving, more shops are trying to tap the market but most are a joke.


In any given group of technical divers (or an area) at least one, if not alll, will have a fill station set up because odds are the local shop wouldn't have a clue how to get the gas you want into your tank.

No, most shops won't sell parts, don't have the right gas (certainly not at a reasonable price) would hastle you about the way you mark your tanks and on and on and on. Not very useful to the technical diver.

Most of the technical instructors I know and ALL of the good ones I know gave up trying to teach in a shop environment long ago and are independants. My former cave instructor did his trimix training with Sheck Exley who issued his own certification cards. I don't remember who he did his initial cave training with but he later did some sidemount training with Lamar Hires. My first trimix instructor and my IANTD IT did their cave training with my cave instructor. My cave instructor taught my first trimix instructor to blend but no one had a card for that then. the cave instructor later went to the trimix instructor (his blending student) to get a blending card ecause he actually became a blending instructor for an agency first. Interesting huh? It's the divers who have gone out and learned/developed this stuff and the agencies and shops who are picking it up from them...not the other way around.

 

[Scuba]

It depends how you work the numbers. When I had a shop I figured a fill cost me about $25. However, we didn't sell much gas. All the local dive sites have a fill station on site and , with no employees (I couldn't afford them), my shop was closed on weekends because I was out teaching. The vast majority of the gas I pumped was to teach classes and the cost of the fill was included in the (way too low) course fees. So...If I took the cost of the fill station and the maintenance, subtracted a percentage of the utilization for classes and devided the rest by the number of fills I sold to people walking in for a fill, it was very costly. In the time I had the compressor and the shop I didn't never took in enough cash selling air fills to even cover the initial investment. How's that for a ROI.

From a business cost effective perspective, the numbers have to be worked out ahead of time. This can be complex or fairly simple, and there are no guarantee's from errors or market changes. The example you give appears to show you purchased too much compressor for your needs. You probably could have met your needs with a lesser but more cost effective compressor? Did you deduct resale price/value from your p/fill cost calculations?

Most of the technical instructors I know and ALL of the good ones I know gave up trying to teach in a shop environment long ago and are independants. My former cave instructor did his trimix training with Sheck Exley who issued his own certification cards. I don't remember who he did his initial cave training with but he later did some sidemount training with Lamar Hires. My first trimix instructor and my IANTD IT did their cave training with my cave instructor. My cave instructor taught my first trimix instructor to blend but no one had a card for that then. the cave instructor later went to the trimix instructor (his blending student) to get a blending card ecause he actually became a blending instructor for an agency first. Interesting huh? It's the divers who have gone out and learned/developed this stuff and the agencies and shops who are picking it up from them...not the other way around.

A wonderful insight into the SCUBA world.

 

[mrgonz]

I decided to not visit my LDS anymore for nothing but fills and defog and this is why.

I went to sign up for their AOW course and was about to pay for everything, when they asked about my gear. I told them I didn't have to rent because I had everything but tanks and weights. They said they would need some kind of proof that I bouth it and had it assembled at a reputable dive shop, and I had to tell them I bought everything at LP and my friend, who has been diving for 20 years and worked for a very long time in that Dive shop assembling and repairing gear put my things together. They said no, and that I would have to rent all the gear for the AOW dives because of "insurance purpouses" (which as my friend told me, is BS).

I bought the AOW book from them and said goodbye.