Why do you dismiss DIR?

[VTWarrenG]

If you're "eager to learn," Mossback, buy the *!%&!* book, or go do some reading online. It's not like the web isn't FULL of DIR information. Quit asking specific people to write books for you on online forums -- we aren't your servants. Asking someone to explain DIR in a single post is like asking someone to explain electrical engineering in a single post. It's not possible -- and even if it were, no one feels like doing it. There's a wealth of information scattered across many websites, many of which were in the links provided in the scubaboard thread given to you by roakey, suggestively entited "What exactly is DIR?" Since you feel the issue was "danced about" in that thread, I'll assume you can't read. Go back and look at the thread again. There are two or three pages of links there, originally gathered by LY, and posted by me. Go read them.

If you don't want to spend time reading, you might as well give up on DIR -- because DIR isn't simple. I, personally, don't give rat's ass if you learn DIR or not. Don't make it someone else's responsibility to educate you. Let's just call it "self-discovery."

- Warren

 

[Mossback]

Jet,

Thanks for the link. It has helpful information.

According to your link:

The DIR System is comprised of three things:

1. What they call a unified team.

They stress divers must tell the team when dives are beyond their ability or when their level of comfort has been exceeded. This appears to be no more than the SOP through out the diving world that anyone can abort a dive at any time for any reason.
Next they say "one learns through challenge." and "DIR dive teams are always looking to improve their dive skills by challenging the limit of their abilities and opening themselves to new knowledge." This is what we've been doing for years, pushing the envelope a tad farther.

2. Next is "enhanced pre-dive preparation"

This seems to be a lifestyle focus which prepares you for diving in general. They say it "involves three essential components: mental focus, physical fitness and diving experience." This doesn't seem to be different from what many of have been doing for decades. It does seem to ignore dive planning for the specific dive. With this life focus, I'll assume that was an oversite of the web site rather than the system.

3. Finally they come to DIR equipment configuration.

They start with an interesting statement, "The most common misconception is that one part of the system can be adopted, such as the equipment configuration, and others can be ignored, such as the team-centered approach or physical fitness."

The actual equipment configuration does not seem very complicated to me. In fact, the website stresses it's simplicity. "Equipment that does not enrich the dive is considered a liability and should be left at home."

According to the website it is simply:

"A rigid backplate (aluminum or stainless steel) with a one-piece, webbed harness, a back-mounted buoyancy compensator for streamlined movement and horizontal posture, a short reserve hose that hangs around the neck for easy retrieval and a long hose (5-7 ft. or 1.5-2 m) that can run under a hip-mounted light canister (or under the arm with a 5 ft. or 1.5 m hose). While there are numerous important details in the DIR system, this simple configuration is the foundation of DIR."

Nothing new here either. What's the fuss about?

Doesn't seem to be all that long or complicated to me. Is there more that isn't on the website?

Warren,

Who took a leak in your Cheerios?

I am certainly begining to see where the issues with attitude originate. I guess Andrew isn't the only "total bastard" associated with DIR, that title apparently also applies to future students as well as instructors. Thanks for clearing up that issue for me Warren. If you were my servant, I would have ordered you to write a book. Since you are not my servant nor even anyone I was interested in hearing from, I didn't ask anything of you. What I did was politely ask someone who has some self respect a question. I did not ask anyone to write a book. Since DIR is comparable to Electrical Engineering I guess I have 5 years of study ahead of me before I'll really be able to apply any of it. At that point I'll have the theory and start learning how it's really done. Taking a huge leap of faith and believing you actually know what you are talking about, the answer to why people dismiss DIR is quite simple. Who the hell wants to put years into learning a system before applying it? Somehow, I don't believe that is even close to the actual situation. Assume what you will about my ability to read. Such assumptions merely confirm your lack of proper upbringing.

Mossback

 

[Mossback]

I received a private message informing me that my original question was phrased in a manner that was a "slap in the face" to, except for Lost Yooper, all proponets of DIR on this board. This was not my intention and I offer my apology to anyone who was offended my my original question. No slap in the face was intended. I noticed a great deal of foolishness between the two factions. I wished to avoid more of the same by addressing my question directly to one I perceived as being above that. While I noticed that same quality with respect to some others as well, I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, they were more students than practitioners. Please forgive my blunder, I had no wish to offend and will try to be more sensitive in the fiture.

Mossback

 

[AquaTec]

Hey Mossback
I like your style; you seem to be a fast learner and a good judge of caricature.

I too have an interest in DIR but it is very difficult to get anybody to actually give you detailed information with out you asking a specific question.

In there defense I have only been kicking around here for a couple of weeks and already I see the same thing being discussed over and over, so I guess they get tired of having to teach us boys.

Of the few people I have gotten to know around here I would suggest you listen to
Uncle Pug
Lost Yooper
Jimholcomb
Roakey

These are just a few that seem to be willing to offer good information and answer your questions without being condescending at the same time.

My suggestion as one who also wants to know more is to read what has been suggested and then grab something specific from it and ask about that, so far I have been able to get some good info from the above-mentioned sources using that method. But be prepared for many pages of dialog like warrens.

My grandfather always said that usually the one, who talks the loudest or belittles you for asking, is generally the one who knows the least about the subject.

Don’t give up, there is good stuff that comes from DIR and this board, you just need to search for it. And you can expect Yoop to respond to you as requested, I ran into exactly what you have and he PM me and clarified a lot of stuff without all the board rhetoric.

 

[The Chairman]

In my most humble opinion...

Mossback is not that far off in his assessment of who is reasonable. I would have at least added Uncle Pug, but that is not the issue. Rather than BLAST Mossback for such an HONEST opinion you should really look to see why he feels that way. To say "to hell with the messenger" its the message that is important, certainly begs the real quesiton. Why is it that some DIR devotees really piss us NON-devotees (notice I did not say anti-DIR) off.

1) I don't think it's the set of "rules" that compromises DIR (well, rule #1 is a bit offensive).

2) I don't think that it's everyone's fault who gets pissed off either. Too many to discount this as merely jealousy, or any other heinous attitude.

3) Possibly, just possibly, it just MIGHT (however improbable) be the attitude of SOME (definately, not all) of the DIR devotees. No, I'm not gonna even single GI3 out for this... he is not the only ambassador that is at fault. I know, I know, I will be labeled anti-DIR by the very same people who have NO CLUE that their attitude is what generates ALL of this animosity.

Mossback, you have the right to direct any or all questions to one individual- even on a public forum. That will not stop others from chiming in, but so what. You obviously have no agenda other than finding out what the hell, DIR is all about. If they can't respect your request and their feelings get hurt by you asking someone else for advice, well... they have OBVIOUSLY never been around the creator of DIR. Their skins are much too thin to deal with him one on one.

 

[roakey]

Originally posted by AquaTec

.
.
.
Roakey

These are just a few that seem to be willing to offer good information and answer your questions without being condescending at the same time.

Whoa, any takers? There must be at least a dozen in here!

Roak (who's not currently in Mr. Hyde mode)

 

[VTWarrenG]

Sorry guys,

I did indeed get a little hot under the collar. I end up explaining DIR to several people almost every week, and almost all they do (at least at first) is try to attack it. I don't know what their agenda is -- maybe they just bought a bunch of stroke gear... maybe they just finished learning stroke diving from their own Johnny Hero instructor... who knows?

I do take offense when someone tries to tell me how to teach them. If they want to know something, they ask a question -- then they sit back and listen to me answer it. If I don't know the answer, I will graciously decline to provide an answer -- or at least I'll preface my answer with the fact that it's a guess.

The DIR folks on this board end up answering the same questions ad nauseum, out of some sense of public duty. It does get a little frustrating when some newbie (no offense Mossback) asks the familiar newbie questions, and then has the gall to criticize the responses.

- Warren

 

[AquaTec]

Warren
I too am here to learn but before I ask you to teach me about DIR, GUE, or WKPP. I would like to know were you learned this info that you pass on from

Are you a GUE instructor? GUE certified at any level?
I pressume you dive DIR at some level, what level would you say that is? how is you own gear set up for example [not that it constitutes the entire DIR philosaphy]
Do you do technical diving and could you discribe some
what is your current level of training and with what agency


There are a lot of people on this board who are very active and have a lot of information to offer, some even have reconizable names in the annals of diving somewere. some their knowledge of a subject is just so evident.
You are a very active member of this board, but I haven't quite figured out what you have to offer anybody in the way of training

I only ask this beacuse of the statement you made below

Quoted by Warren "I do take offense when someone tries to tell me how to teach them. If they want to know something, they ask a question -- then they sit back and listen to me answer it. If I don't know the answer, I will graciously decline to provide an answer -- or at least I'll preface my answer with the fact that it's a guess."

So I want to know somethinng, I am asking the question, and I am sitting back waiting for my answer

I expect to get sworn at, called names, told I have no experience, etc. etc. but hopefully somewere in there you can come up with an answer

 

[jimholcomb]

....a little background on those participating in this debate on both sides may be helpful in learning where they came to their conclusions.

I'll go first.....

I have no affiliation with GUE, WKPP or Halcyon.
I have roughly 350 dives to date about half being cave dives.
I hold full cave certifications with NSS-CDS/NACD/IANTD.
My recreational certifications all end with DiveMaster for NAUI/PADI/IANTD.

I have adopted the DIR philosophy in it's entirety in my technical diving, however, I have been known to vary a little in the recreational diving (not so anal about others configuration).

I was first introduced to the DIR philosophy early in my cave training by friends who were/are WKPP divers and others. Prior to this exposure I was in the Hogarthian mode. Throughout my training I personally encounter some of the difficulties associated with other configurations and attitudes.

As an IUCRR member I have done a great deal of reading and research into the causes of fatalities over the years in the cave diving community. And through the efforts of this organization we all know the causes. So....appplying this knowledge to the various methods of executing safe dives - I chose DIR.

As a side note, I have always thought that an organization similar to the IUCRR but dedicated to accident analysis in wreck diving would be a tremendous addition to our understanding of what goes wrong.

 

[VTWarrenG]

You are a very active member of this board, but I haven't quite figured out what you have to offer anybody

Wow, thanks AquaTec. It's harsh, but from you, it's not exactly unexpected.

- Warren