Why choosing an instructor sucks

[jadairiii]

some good advice, I would chime in with Florida also. lots of options even if some or most of the caves are blown out, and logistically, a bit easier than Mexico. You can drive to Florida with everything plus the kitchen sink!

Look up David Rhea for Cave 1, cant go wrong with him.

 

[ScubaSquatch]

I'm in the process of choosing an instructor for cave diving, and in reference to anything that is trying to kill me I always seek out second opinions. Here are some of the many reasons this process sucks.

1. Factions. In my home state of MO there are multiple groups that cave dive and none of them do it the same way or place the same value in all aspects of the process of cave diving.

2. Small community that isn't small enough. Everyone seems to know everyone else within two points of separation. which brings me into my next point...

3. Strong Opinions / Personalities. Every small group thinks that every other group is full of pricks, or are dangerous, or add whatever other adjective you want to that. One person from the group had a bad run-in with one person from the other group and everyone got on board with the tiff. Similarly I've had a group of people tell me very passionately that backmount doubles suck when none of them had ever tried BM, but they heard a friend of theirs that tried them once voice preference for sidemount. That kind of stuff.

4. Logistics. Some people say mexico is the best place to learn caves, others say Florida. Some say you need to do both to get a holistic training experience. I've been told that I can learn to dive in FL or MX but the conditions are so much more gnarly in MO that I'd have to practically relearn for local caves. Some people say to learn in a few places from a few different instructors. Some say to stick with one.

5. Lastly, and my biggest issue personally, I have no way to really evaluate an instructors diving because I'm not able to get into a cave with them until its too late. So group A could be right that they rock or group B could be right that the instructor should be avoided and I'll be none the wiser until my life is already in their hands and could have a bunch more money on training and travel to correct any shortcomings or whatever.


I hate politics, especially in leisure. As an outsider its difficult to rise above it when the entire experience is literally underground. Thats all I had to say.

Where in KC are you located? I'm in Olathe. I'm planning to do my full cave this February.

 

[helodriver87]

I'm not sure how actively David teaches anymore. I think he still will, but he's semi retired so you're gonna pay for it.

My $0.02 would be to start in Florida. That's going to be like the beginner version of what your local caves will offer. Mexico is gorgeous, but very different from what you'll be doing locally. If you have experience diving doubles already, do your cave class in doubles. No sense learning a new configuration when none of the intro level diving you'll be doing will require it. I'm not overly familiar with MO caves, but I don't get the impression that they're small and delicate, so sidemount may be of limited use there. I did my cave and tech training through GUE. I can only speak to that style firsthand, but I do know really solid instructors through other agencies I'd feel comfortable recommending. One of the reasons i chose GUE was precisely because picking an instructor can be overwhelming. You still need to do some research on experience, personality, etc, but every class teaches the exact same stuff in the exact same gear, no matter who is running it. So it takes a big piece of the puzzle out of the picture.

 

[rddvet]

Knowing what level you're at currently would also be helpful in giving advice. After years of cave diving if I had to do it all over again, I would start by taking gue fundies and go from there. I had an instructor mentor who had some gue training and was a very sound technical instructor who gave me all of my early training (doubles, drysuit, intro to tech) as mentorship dives as opposed to a set class. It was actually great because we took our time and really honed skills. Even now though I find little things that we may have missed or would be better had I taken a class like fundies. Even if you don't want to go the GUE cave route, having fundies under your belt will make you a better student and better capable of learning.
After about 6-7 years of cave diving and most all the cave certs you can get, I still plan to take fundies within the next year or so. I had hoped to this year but corona and my schedule haven't allowed it. I guarantee I will learn something. When I first learned to cave dive I knew pretty much nothing of GUE other than the "cult" rumors.

 

[Nirvana]

I can relate to your troubles. When I started on my path to learning to cave dive, I had the same difficulty in trying to find a good instructor. I found recommendations on instructors not to be always reliable. Besides, I had trouble gauging how good the instructor would be without traveling to meet him and getting in the water with him, at which time I was already committed to having the class with him.

Given this difficulty, I would probably go the GUE route if I were to do it all over again.

On the Florida/Mexico debate, having dived caves in both places, I would opt to train in Florida. Though Mexican caves are in general more complex in terms of being more "labyrinthine", caves in Florida also offer plenty of navigational challenges, specially for a diver in training or a beginner. The high flow found in caves in Florida, on the other hand, can be very tough to deal with at first, requiring a technique that is not easy to practice in other environments. On this note, have you seen pictures of the hands of divers at the end of their first dives in high flow caves?

The only caveat in relation with training in Florida is that some instructors rely on certain characteristics of the local caves, such as standards on line markings, that are not extensible to Mexico.

 

[rjack321]

I knew I was forgetting a few off the top of my head. I've also learned a lot here from @Caveeagle, @Jack Hammer, and @rjack321!

Thanks for your vote of confidence but I'm actually not an instructor at all, not even OW. I have a long since dead DM card from 2009 and I did assist with a number of entryish level tech courses as part of that but formal instruction, nyte.

If the OP is interested in diving in MO caves, my sincere recommendation is to train in FL (not even MO). In part because if you go to FL you can have some level of fluidity when you come back to MO and interactions with the local factions. If you approach both tribes with a bit of humility and be like "I'm just a baby cave diver who wants to see stuff" most people will put aside their machismo and dive with you. Nod and listen to their bitching and moaning about the other tribe, then switch sides and see what all the fuss was about and make up your own now semi-educated mind as a novice. Taking the course in FL allows you more wiggle room to not alienate anyone locally before you even know what the scoop is (although it's probably just dumb personalities, there are plenty of flaky poor cave divers out there to steer clear of)

FL is a lot more like MO than MX which is a completely different beast. I would at least do your cave1/cavern/intro/apprentice level stuff in backmount. IMO sidemount is a tool for more advanced special situations so build your skillset so you can do it all. BM 1st, SM later, RB (eventually)

 

[Caveeagle]

The only caveat in relation with training in Florida is that some instructors rely on certain characteristics of the local caves, such as standards on line markings, that are not extensible to Mexico.

that may be true.. but I think it’s sort of a non issue for a new prospective cave diver. And besides, you should be hiring a guide for your first couple Mexico trips anyway. So the line markings are still critical, but a good guide will get you through it.

in all seriousness, you should contact Ken Sallat. He’s on this board. I’m pretty sure his (open circuit) preference is Backmount. And nothing against the GUE route, but I seriously doubt you will find any better training regardless of agency. And I have absolutely NO financial or faction alignment with Ken.. I have dove with a few of his students, and seen how he is with his trainees above and below water.

I think he’s to decent to get on this thread and toot his own horn, so I will do it for him.

one additional point about FL vs Mx. I hope you are not planning to go zero to hero in one 7-10 day trip.. and whether you do, or not.. Weather, the plague, or just a ****** day of mistakes underwater can cause anyone to need another day or two of diving to complete your certification. For most people, being in FL would be far better for dealing with contingencies.

 

[helodriver87]

in all seriousness, you should contact Ken Sallat. He’s on this board

Ken was one of the instructors I had in mind that I'd point someone to. I sat in on a friend's Cave DPV class with him after a few months of doing cave DPV dives myself and learned some really helpful stuff. He's a TDI instructor, but teaches with a really similar philosophy and configuration to the GUE instructors I've worked with, so it was an easy adjustment. That's a solid option if you're not sold on the GUE thing but like aspects of it.

 

[dewdropsonrosa]

1. Factions.
This is just a fact of technical diving society, sorry! People sort into groups based on their philosophies, preferences, and priorities. It's worth it to spend some time talking to people within different groups to see if one resonates with you. For example, some people totally love the GUE philosophy and live it, and other people prefer the do-what-works approach.

2. Small community...
This is just another fact of technical diving society. Only about 1% of new certs each year are for technical diving (TDI) and there are probably only a few thousand people who are actively cave diving (CaveDiving.com). We're probably all within three degrees of separation.

3. Strong Opinions/Personalities
This is just a diver thing.

4. Logistics
I agree with you here: there are many different forms of cave diving (Mexican cenotes, Florida high-flow caves, Ozark mudholes, English sumps, etc.) and they have different skill demands. The best approach is to consider what type of cave diving (a) you want to do and (b) are most likely able to do. Think about whether it makes sense to train in Mexico if vacations to Florida are what you can afford. Think about whether you'll want to deal with high flow, complex navigation, bad visibility, etc. It's important to find an instructor who is prepared to teach you what you need for the kind of diving that you want to do.

I chose to train in Florida for two reasons. Firstly, I can drive to Florida in 1-2 days for vacation and that helps me go more frequently that I can get to Mexico. I can also bring my own preferred gear in the car. Secondly, what I was told is that people who learn to dive in Florida can adapt to Mexico easily (conditions are usually less challenging), but Mexico-trained divers have to put in work to learn how to dive in flow.

5. Instructor Choice
This one is more challenging for people who aren't local to their diving caves. I've been quite lucky that Reggie Ross (who was recommended to me) and I got along very well and now that Chris Brock has taken over my training, we also have a great learning relationship and friendship. I'm ready to recommend Chris to you right here, right now. I'd even be happy to have a phone call about it and put you in touch with him.

When you're picking an instructor remotely, anyone credible is going to be willing to spend time on the phone or on Skype with you. Cave diver training is a serious commitment that goes both ways - they also want to know that they're a good match for you and your needs before you start dropping $300-400/day on training. You'll have time to ask about their training methods, philosophies, preferences, etc. You can also ask them to provide references from previous students and make separate calls.

Cave diving instruction is a very reputation-based industry. You'll be able to find out a lot of information about instructors from general internet searches, reading here on ScubaBoard, asking people on Facebook (there are several highly-active cave diving groups), and making conversation.

When you're starting to look at instructors, feel free to ask us here. I'm certain that SB has divers here trained by all of the "public figure" instructors, many instructors who are less prominent in the community but still excellent, and by instructors that you shouldn't step near.

 

[RyanT]

Thanks for your vote of confidence but I'm actually not an instructor at all, not even OW.

Irrespective, I always appreciate your insights!