Why are we so mean?

[DiverLaura]

it might be that certain things are associated with "DIR" style diving... such as a shorter inflator hose, single webbing, etc... It could also be that simply the manner of input which was utilized is oft identified as 'DIR" style...

and that is what perhaps is being addressed here as part of the problem... its not the who that said it, it was the 'how', and that, like it or not, is associated with "DIR".

Yeah, as far as the thread that lynne posted about, I'm puzzled by that as well since most of the posters don't really seem to be self-identified DIR/GUE types...

I still do see the problem that lynne is talking about in the community, though, so I thought I'd respond to that...

 

[lamont]

Actually, now that I think about it, lynne may be committing the same kind of mistake. Bunch of divers who don't have a particularly strict GUE-bent, and aren't really DIR zealots go out and give someone a bit of crap which is more of a techdiver-on-newbie-techdiver hazing kind of offense, but the issue is brought up in the DIR forum, because we're still paying for the sins of GI3.

However, I do see the behavior that I think that lynne is really talking about anyway. You can still watch some newbies in DIR/GUE get out of the courses with a chip on their shoulder and gravitate towards some of the old guard DIR and you can watch the swagger and jokes develop again. I don't know what to do about it, other than have nothing to do with it personally and walking away from it all.

 

[terrylowe]

Wanted to give a point of view from a new (relatively) diver.

I have ventured into several new hobbies in the last decade (mid life crisis thingy) and have noticed that I am pretty insecure about being "new" in anything. It is a bit awkward...sorta like walking into a room of strangers that is in a full active conversation and they all stop and stare at you.

When I got my new Honda Shadow I was truly pumped up. My Harley friend told me that I had to stay at least 5 bike lengths behind him out of "Harley respect". LOL

When I started Spanish..."why are you studying castellano?"

Bicycle..."tri-bike is waaay better that your cheap $1500 trek."

Running..."Nikes and a white t-shirt?"

Photography..."that photo is 'artistic'"

SCUBA. I learned a ton on SB and have definitely become safer diver. However there are definitely some "attitudes" here. I didn't have to lurk very long to learn that there are some questions that you don't ask without the risk of a beatdown. (I remember someone coming on to say that they are now a Master Diver...talk about shark infested waters....) The odd thing is...that as a recreational diver, it really doesn't matter if HOF or not or even air integration or not...but there very strong opinions about these and other topics. These opinions are expressed without a "courtesy filter" due the the nature of an Internet forum. This can be intimidating and perceived as bullying to a new person.

One of my funnest dives was with an "insta-buddy" who was a Navy Seal wanting to do a recreational dive in clear water. I'm thinking "great...a seal". He read my mind. One of the most laid back unassuming personalities that I have run across. Absolutely a blast to dive with. He made a choice to make it fun as well as a learning experience for me. I'd like to see a little more of that on SB.

 

[The Chairman]

if that is to happen, then we as a 'group' must work to change a perception.

For me, the group consists of ALL ScubaBoardians. Too many like to play Whack-a-Troll with newbies and literally run them off. When they take umbrage at the treatment they are getting, they justify their actions by attacking their attitude. If someone takes exception to what you are saying or how you are saying it, you would be prudent to examine yourself and your methodology. If your goal is to have fun at other's expense, then you will probably continue. If your goal is to communicate, then you must address the failure for what it is. The sad part is that calling someone a troll and treating them as such is the easy way out. Depersonalizing your actions somehow makes them more acceptable. Its like the nun who complained in earnest to her Mother Superior about the language the workers putting on the addition were using. "Oh sister", counselled the MS, "They just call a spade a spade!", "Oh no, dear Mother, they call it an %$#@% shovel!"

 

[Peter Guy]

A. Thank you TSandM for your brilliant and timely thread. Once again you have made a necessary and well thought out post and argument. Excellent!*

B. Andy -- c'mon -- your posts on THAT thread were over the top -- man up and admit it!

C. I am NOT a "Technical Instructor" but I do hope to become a baby one in the not too distant future -- even if it is merely a PADI beginning Tec Instructor. BUT, even with PADI, it is not enough to be able to do all the "skills" unlike what someone wrote earlier. At least with PADI (and I can't believe it isn't true with the other agencies) the Technical Instructor is specifically instructed NOT to certify a student if the instructor believes the student's attitude is not "appropriate for technical diving." It IS a combination of skills and mindset, unlike recreational diving.

D. Andy (again) -- did any of you notice that "Joel" left the thread after you started in on the whole nit-picky discussion so that you were only debating amongst yourselves? IF the purpose of your posts is to inform, then perhaps a better "attitude" on YOUR part is required -- but IF the purpose of your posts is to let people know your thoughts, then what the hell.

--------------------------
*She's coming off 3 night shifts so I need to be especially nice!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The difference in approach between DIR and sidemount, for example, is WAY different. Some people dive with two long hoses. Others say, not a good idea, and this is why. No one says, "you're going to die" if you - as a newb - say you are going to try the two long hose approach. In fact, the common answer is, "come tell us how that worked for you", and not in a snarky way.

The main difference is that acceptance of different ways can be okay.

I think it's primarily because sidemount is still at the point where no matter what you buy, a little customization is usually desireable ... and it hasn't been out on the market long enough for people to form strong opinions.

But I still see some from time to time ... particularly when that UTD gas-block thingie gets brought up ... :shocked2:

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Actually, now that I think about it, lynne may be committing the same kind of mistake. Bunch of divers who don't have a particularly strict GUE-bent, and aren't really DIR zealots go out and give someone a bit of crap which is more of a techdiver-on-newbie-techdiver hazing kind of offense, but the issue is brought up in the DIR forum, because we're still paying for the sins of GI3.

However, I do see the behavior that I think that lynne is really talking about anyway. You can still watch some newbies in DIR/GUE get out of the courses with a chip on their shoulder and gravitate towards some of the old guard DIR and you can watch the swagger and jokes develop again. I don't know what to do about it, other than have nothing to do with it personally and walking away from it all.

A bit of laughter at their presumption sometimes helps put things in perspective ... and if that doesn't work, public humiliation via Photoshop is generally effective ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DevonDiver]

B. Andy -- c'mon -- your posts on THAT thread were over the top -- man up and admit it!

Absolutely. I did even apologise in the thread for assuming the OP wanted advice. It was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but I do understand that the humour doesn't necessarily translate that well over a screen. I thought the funny pics would illustrate that, but I guess it's just as easy to interpret those as being snarky too.

C. I am NOT a "Technical Instructor" but I do hope to become a baby one in the not too distant future -- even if it is merely a PADI beginning Tec Instructor. BUT, even with PADI, it is not enough to be able to do all the "skills" unlike what someone wrote earlier. At least with PADI (and I can't believe it isn't true with the other agencies) the Technical Instructor is specifically instructed NOT to certify a student if the instructor believes the student's attitude is not "appropriate for technical diving." It IS a combination of skills and mindset, unlike recreational diving.

Absolutely. There's a lot of difference between recreational and technical diving - and not just in terms of skills and procedures. Since I had my first taste of technical diving, in an icy quarry with Mark Powell some years ago, I've always tried to be a sponge when it comes to inter-acting with other technical divers. I didn't see that attitude in the OP of the thread we're discussing and I wanted to illustrate that for his benefit.

The PADI tec system does teach instructors not to certify if the mindset isn't right. I fully support that. I don't currently hold any tec instructor rating with other agencies, but from the courses I've taken and the people I've dived with, I'd assume that a similar emphasis does exist, even if only informally.

D. Andy (again) -- did any of you notice that "Joel" left the thread after you started in on the whole nit-picky discussion so that you were only debating amongst yourselves? IF the purpose of your posts is to inform, then perhaps a better "attitude" on YOUR part is required -- but IF the purpose of your posts is to let people know your thoughts, then what the hell.

Joel posted in the equipment forum, rather than the technical forum, so I saw his post as an equipment based discussion, rather than a 'technical advice reqd' thread. If someone asks a question, then I'll answer it, if I can. I do believe there is no such thing as a dumb question.

To be honest, I'm (still) not sure why Joel posted this - as he didn't provide any clarity about what he hoped his post would achieve, or where he wanted it to go. I made the mistake of assuming he wanted a critique. As was pointed out in the thread, he didn't ask for a critique - but then, he didn't ask for anything else either. I made a jokey post to illustrate how I couldn't understand what the OP wanted to achieve from his thread. His responses showed that it wasn't advice or critique. He didn't ask any questions.. and he didn't raise any issues. He just posted a picture, told us what he had bought and what course he was doing.

Maybe he just wanted a 'pat on the back' for something? I really don't know.

 

[Bombay High]

.. If you think SB is harsh, visit The Deco Stop. :shocked2:
...

... or Offshore Diver

 

[beautybelow]

I think the whole point in what this thread has turned into is...maybe he WAS just looking for a pat on the back.

If he had posted pictures of an obviously dangerous kit, then maybe he would deserve some warnings rather than a pat on the back.

But as far as I can tell he didn't. It was just an average starter kit for what he was doing.

I see pictures of peoples new camera rigs posted all of the time and they ARE just looking for a pat on the back. They get it from the people that are in their range of equipment, or lower and everyone moves on. Sometimes they ask for critique, but a lot of times it's just hey, look at my new camera.

When I see these, I have two choices, say "OK" to myself and move along to the next thread or post a remark, be it an attaboy or advice if he asked. If he was just looking for an attaboy and I don't see one is really deserved yet, I just move along. If I have no clue why he posted the picture of his equipment, I just move along.