The implication seems to be that there are other boards out there that are meaner so it's ok?
Why are we so mean?
- Thread starter TSandM
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The implication seems to be that there are other boards out there that are meaner so it's ok?
Most people come to ScubaBoard in order to find community. They want to be a part of a like minded group of divers and have no idea why they are being ostracized over (to them) picayune ideologies. While to us, learning is the prime reason to be here, its way low on the list of the casual poster/reader.
Think about it. You come to a corner cafe, your feet are tired and so you sit. The waiter unexpectedly brings you lemonade. Dismayed, you inform him that you didn't order lemonade and wanted only water. Equally dismayed, the waiter tells you that he was at a loss as to why you sat down and figured that since the cafe's specialty was lemonade, you must also want some. Disturbed by the attitude of the waiter, you get up and walk to the next cafe hoping to find a better waiter. After the customer left in a huff the staff bemused that the customer had a terrible attitude for not accepting what he had not ordered.
How could the thread have gone differently? "Hey xx, Nice pic of some shiny new gear! You must be excited about your class. I know I was! Would you mind if I gave you some friendly advice on your set up? It would help you to optimize your gear and impress your instructor!" That would be like the waiter suggesting the most awesomest lemonade anyone had ever the pleasure of trying and letting the customer make the decision about trying it or not.
If you aren't sure why a person is posting, simply ask them. Assuming that they must want this or that will assuredly piss off a certain number of people over time.
Also, think about when you are new to a group. Peeps are making jokes and you aren't really sure if you're the butt of them or not. You don't really understand them as they are really inside jokes, even though the jokers think they are obvious. Rather than feeling a part of the group, which is really why you are there, you feel a bit ostracized and alone. Take away the visual clues, like here on the internet, and the issue is exacerbated. In fact, using humor on a ScubaBoard denizen is often misinterpreted as it is. Using it on a newbie is almost always lost. To illustrate this, recently I used this clip to make a point:
Lighten up Francis!
Having established the point with this farcical illustration, I proceeded to call one of the posters "Francis" for taking things too seriously and condemning someone he had never met. Rather than go with the HUMOR that was so obvious in the clip, he and a couple of friends simply resented the inference, claiming that I was calling him a name. I pointed out, to no avail, that "Francis" is not a recognized epithet like doofus, stroke and the like. Yet, the damage had been done. Why? THEY WEREN'T OPEN TO LEARNING OR IMPROVING. Mind you, these are veterans of ScubaBoard who would bristle if someone did not take their well intentioned advice. But give them some insight into their own faults and its simply not allowed! Too funny, but they dug in their heels and could not admit their behavior was mean. Kinda sad, kinda funny sad, but my mistake was believing that they wanted to learn and to be better, perhaps to even change. Not always so. It was obvious their feelings got hurt and they went into combat mode and so became completely unreasonable and unable to see the problem. I tried. I failed. They have refused to change. Life still goes on. Perhaps I learned a bit more about people.
OP
I wish this thread hadn't turned into an argument about Joel's shiny new kit (which I think he posted because he was excited about it -- haven't you ever wanted to do something like that?)
The underlying issue was beautifully addressed in the beginning of NetDoc's post above mine . . . It's quite possible to offer "criticism" in a way that's friendly, constructive, and likely to be at least considered by the recipient. It's also possible to jump on people with both feet. Some of us retain instructors who proceed to do that, and at least we gave them implied permission to do it. Maybe everybody thinks that posting on a board like this is the same thing, but I don't. And if we really think the way we dive represents some kind of best practices, wouldn't the goal be to convince people, rather than alienate them?
The underlying issue was beautifully addressed in the beginning of NetDoc's post above mine . . . It's quite possible to offer "criticism" in a way that's friendly, constructive, and likely to be at least considered by the recipient. It's also possible to jump on people with both feet. Some of us retain instructors who proceed to do that, and at least we gave them implied permission to do it. Maybe everybody thinks that posting on a board like this is the same thing, but I don't. And if we really think the way we dive represents some kind of best practices, wouldn't the goal be to convince people, rather than alienate them?
Are SB Staff trained in this? How often are alienating posts taken down by mods? Perhaps SB is getting exactly what they are asking for. If SB was serious about a having a tone that was reasonable, we would see more mods take down more posts. Just look at the threads regarding the SM accident.
I thought that this thread began with the idea to see how experienced divers, in particular DIR divers, can make posting a more pleasant experience for others who want to learn or at least participate in a SB conversation. Virtually no one is posting ideas about how to do that. Irony doesn't even begin to describe it.
I have read pretty much the entire thread. I'll bet that the people that need to read this thread aren't. I too have been on the receiving end of the haters but they are everywhere, gun forums etc. I'm on one forum where the hating is not tolerated. And it is not a forced politeness. If there is anything negative to be said its done off thread. I've been an active member now for over 8 yrs. Other forums nope I'll just leave.
Maybe we need to police ourselves and call people out for being ass hats. BUT it must be suppoerted by the staff. Because ultimately some will need culling from the herd. Once this happens a few times they will behave.
Mitchell
Sent from my NookColor using Tapatalk
Maybe we need to police ourselves and call people out for being ass hats. BUT it must be suppoerted by the staff. Because ultimately some will need culling from the herd. Once this happens a few times they will behave.
Mitchell
Sent from my NookColor using Tapatalk
Dan, the first step in taking down an alienating post is that it is reported. If people do not find it worth reporting, the mods do not interfere (usually). If something is way over the top, a mod will take action. And sometimes, even if a post is reported, the joint mod opinion is that it should stay.
In general, the balance is pretty darned good. It will never be perfect; such is life.
ScubaBoard mods run a zoned defense. While they are pretty proactive in the "Green Zones" (New Diver areas), they are less so in the more advanced areas, reactive in the non-scuba areas and we almost all ignore the Pub. Why? Its YOUR community. The mods want to know what YOU think is over the line. A half dozen people make 90% of the reported posts. Probably as many posts are acted on by the mods before anyone gets a chance to report them. The issue is not so much if the mods can or are willing to do their job, its more if you're willing to tell them when a post needs to be addressed. If you've never reported a post, you have to ask yourself "Why?". This is your community, so please tell us what you like or dislike. Please don't expect us to read your mind or understand your view point if you aren't willing to explain it. As am international site, we also have to make allowances for differing cultures. What's not so offensive to one culture many be anathema to another.
Let's be realistic. A half dozen people comprise 70% of the mod's work load. If you deal with someone enough, you tend to be a bit too quick on the trigger and the specter of over-moderation becomes a real one. This is why we let the community let us know what is acceptable and what isn't. We can accomplish more with less bias. There are a few people who have caused me enough anguish so that I will NOT moderate them. Its a mod's duty to recuse themselves when its probable that any action can be tainted with dislike. More often than not, the mod in question does this to themselves, but every now an then they simply have to be told.
As for training the mods, its an ongoing job taken on by ALL the mods and especially the advisors. We discuss things in the "back room" and every now and then a mod gets piled on for their behavior. Mods are selected for their friendliness and ongoing desire to help others. Those who ask to be a mod are automatically disqualified. Obviously, anyone who would WANT to do this must be nuttier than the ones we had to beg to serve.
As Jax pointed out: the balance is pretty darned good!
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TDS is full of sweet hearts, what are you talking about :-D
Reading through this thread has been interesting because I generally don't get along with the DIR crowds. 98% of what they do is similar to what I was trained to do. I dive in a Halcyon rig when I'm working with classes, and dive doubles with hose configurations and what not that meet "DIR" standards. I do adapt my configuration to what fits my body and personal preferences as well as dive sites so I'm with Andy in this. I've been bashed whenever I dive because I have a fixed D-ring on my doubles bands, use a transpac instead of a one piece harness and various other reasons including how it's not safe to use a yoke reg for my O2 bottle. Then these same guys were in the water flopping around and looking like fools. Just not cool. I know some great guys who are DIR, and that includes people on here, but the public image is not that great.
Snorkels, they are practical to have in some situations, it's not DIR and shouldn't be allowed in a DIR course. I don't know which thread this is based on, but for general "tech" I don't like seeing snorkels and quick releases but in the recreational/beginner tech sets. I don't dive with one, but I carry one whenever I'm in the ocean. Same with quick releases and chest straps, and they have their benefits as long as you accept the potential failure point. Nothing wrong with them.
It was mentioned in the first post that there was supposed to be critique of a divers rig in a GUE class. Isn't there really one acceptable rig and that's it? If I was teaching one of them, it would be you dive what is required or you don't dive. Accept it or don't get trained in DIR. The other tech agencies allow a lot more leeway on gear and that is part of the strength of DIR, is having everything identical.
Bulky gear won't slow ascents as most of those divers are diving very heavy with way too much lift in their bc's. As such they have extra air which increases the lift exponentially as they rise increasing their ascent rates. I've seen videos where danglies have indeed slowed descent to the point of halting it completely :-D
One of the things I really genuinely enjoy doing is going out and diving with our "dive shop kids" who come into our scuba 2 group thinking they're good divers and having my boss ream them for being knuckleheads. I like to go out with them even though they suck, and just let them dive. Critiquing things they are doing, showing pictures of them doing it, and then have them watch me to see what I am doing differently. Eventually they buy into what we are teaching and a lot of times it takes them seeing it in the real world. We show them accident videos where things like dangling second stages have caused near drowning incidents and where split fins haven't allowed divers to make progress in current and many others. It isn't until they are diving with us and we hook their console or octo on a line that they buy into what we are teaching and accept that clipping it off is safer. I think there is a huge lack of that in the tech community as a whole. Depending on our training, some of us were never like that *first time I was on scuba was in a "DIR" kit, had a console instead of an spg and a shorter primary hose, but one piece halcyon bc and apeks regs. I didn't dive split fins until I was recovering from a leg laceration and that was years after I learned how to dive and that was on one leg because I couldn't kick a jet fin until the muscle healed. Some of you started that way, and others started in rec classes and converted. Go diving with the guys that are interested in converting and let them try your gear, show them how you can kick 6 inches from a silty bottom and not stir anything up, how you can hover perfectly neutral with good trim and remove fins and do various other things without going vertical. All these things will cause them to look up to you as opposed to hate and resent you causing them to potentially give up that desire to get better.
Reading through this thread has been interesting because I generally don't get along with the DIR crowds. 98% of what they do is similar to what I was trained to do. I dive in a Halcyon rig when I'm working with classes, and dive doubles with hose configurations and what not that meet "DIR" standards. I do adapt my configuration to what fits my body and personal preferences as well as dive sites so I'm with Andy in this. I've been bashed whenever I dive because I have a fixed D-ring on my doubles bands, use a transpac instead of a one piece harness and various other reasons including how it's not safe to use a yoke reg for my O2 bottle. Then these same guys were in the water flopping around and looking like fools. Just not cool. I know some great guys who are DIR, and that includes people on here, but the public image is not that great.
Snorkels, they are practical to have in some situations, it's not DIR and shouldn't be allowed in a DIR course. I don't know which thread this is based on, but for general "tech" I don't like seeing snorkels and quick releases but in the recreational/beginner tech sets. I don't dive with one, but I carry one whenever I'm in the ocean. Same with quick releases and chest straps, and they have their benefits as long as you accept the potential failure point. Nothing wrong with them.
It was mentioned in the first post that there was supposed to be critique of a divers rig in a GUE class. Isn't there really one acceptable rig and that's it? If I was teaching one of them, it would be you dive what is required or you don't dive. Accept it or don't get trained in DIR. The other tech agencies allow a lot more leeway on gear and that is part of the strength of DIR, is having everything identical.
Bulky gear won't slow ascents as most of those divers are diving very heavy with way too much lift in their bc's. As such they have extra air which increases the lift exponentially as they rise increasing their ascent rates. I've seen videos where danglies have indeed slowed descent to the point of halting it completely :-D
One of the things I really genuinely enjoy doing is going out and diving with our "dive shop kids" who come into our scuba 2 group thinking they're good divers and having my boss ream them for being knuckleheads. I like to go out with them even though they suck, and just let them dive. Critiquing things they are doing, showing pictures of them doing it, and then have them watch me to see what I am doing differently. Eventually they buy into what we are teaching and a lot of times it takes them seeing it in the real world. We show them accident videos where things like dangling second stages have caused near drowning incidents and where split fins haven't allowed divers to make progress in current and many others. It isn't until they are diving with us and we hook their console or octo on a line that they buy into what we are teaching and accept that clipping it off is safer. I think there is a huge lack of that in the tech community as a whole. Depending on our training, some of us were never like that *first time I was on scuba was in a "DIR" kit, had a console instead of an spg and a shorter primary hose, but one piece halcyon bc and apeks regs. I didn't dive split fins until I was recovering from a leg laceration and that was years after I learned how to dive and that was on one leg because I couldn't kick a jet fin until the muscle healed. Some of you started that way, and others started in rec classes and converted. Go diving with the guys that are interested in converting and let them try your gear, show them how you can kick 6 inches from a silty bottom and not stir anything up, how you can hover perfectly neutral with good trim and remove fins and do various other things without going vertical. All these things will cause them to look up to you as opposed to hate and resent you causing them to potentially give up that desire to get better.
Unfortunately, it seems that if you are not exactly like me, I will make fun of you and denigrate your choice of equipment and gear. And if you don't accept my mocking, jeering opinion, you obviously have no future in tech. 
Seriously, why should someone spend more money on an SPG when they have a perfectly good console? Does that person deserve the ridicule? And . . . the real point . . . who died that made you the judge?
-- just giving the newb reaction . . .
Seriously, why should someone spend more money on an SPG when they have a perfectly good console? Does that person deserve the ridicule? And . . . the real point . . . who died that made you the judge?
-- just giving the newb reaction . . .
gcarter
Contributor
Having read through the referenced thread, I can see where there was some humour intended, but it honestly came across to me as more mocking than funny.
YMMV
YMMV
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