Why are we so mean?

[The Chairman]

you all so missed my point there is not enough time in my day to correct you.

Your posts have been less than clear. If you want us to understand what message you are trying to convey, you'll have to compose your thoughts better. you can improve this with time and practice. In the mean time, look at the misconceptions that have been identified as opportunities to clarify what you actually meant as opposed to what you conveyed. It doesn't appear that people are trying to twist what you are posting as much as you are not posting clearly. Emotions can be detrimental to communication. Learn to see and communicate objectively.

I never said any thing bad about JJ>

What I quoted in my last post could never be considered anything but "bad" and a bit personal.

but i said that HIS USING THE WORD ELITE MAKES A DIVIDE IN THE DIVE INDUSTRY by leading his team down a path that creates a superior feeling of how to dive.

Actually, you missed this clarity earlier. We could have grasped what you meant if you had actually posted this. You didn't. We were confused as to what you really meant and disagreed with what we THOUGHT you were posting. More than one person took what you posted to mean something different than what you are telling us you meant. No one is picking you apart as much as they are responding to what your posts actually convey... not what you had wished they had conveyed. Even then, I disagree with you and I don't think that this is the problem. To strive for perfection is not a bad thing in itself. Its the bashing of all other dive styles that we find rather odious. I have not seen where JJ has been anything but sincere and rather less than exclusive. In their videos about the core fundamentals of GUE, they go as far as to take a non-GUE person's opinion to show just how universal the goals are. That was actually me, and I jokingly refer to myself now as GUE's Storkesperson.

but dont put mine down just because they dont agree with you

Perhaps I am being completely clueless here, but I fail to see the put down. Could you high light that for us? I do see where he disagreed, but I don't see him calling you any names or inferring anything about you whatsoever. He's definitely allowed to disagree and really, that should never be taken as a put down. Or, am I missing something here?

 

[Scott L]

Scubamountaingirl,
I intended no ill will. Most everybody on SB knows that I am sarcastic, but well meaning in the larger picture. Yes, there are many excellent technical instructors with TDI, IANDT, Etc. A host of them have taken fundies and have adopted into their curriculum. Case in point, Chris Brown, owner of Silent World Dive Center in Key Largo. He spent 3 solid in-water hours with my adv rec trimix class on fundies skills alone and does not differ with GUE's gear configuration standards.

I merely took issue with your premise that JJ and GUE created a problem by establishing very high standards, which do not differ from instructor to instructor the world over. If this created problems within the industry, so be it! It is no secret that the other training agencies have been gradually mimicking GUE's approach on a whole host of class training topics.

I truly hope you stay active on SB. If ever visiting in S. Florida, my DIR gear locker is available for loan as per my standard SOP for visiting DIR divers...

 

[gypsyjim]

you all so missed my point there is not enough time in my day to correct you. I never said any thing bad about JJ> i think he is a nice man. peter....but i said that HIS USING THE WORD ELITE MAKES A DIVIDE IN THE DIVE INDUSTRY by leading his team down a path that creates a superior feeling of how to dive. I said by using this word he is feeding the monster of meanness. READ carefully before opening mouth. I never said anything against him as a person. As i dont know him why would i do that?

I will stand by my knowledge of first hand meanness coming from the DIR community. I am after all a part of it and I do get to hear all the laughter about any other group of divers. and I dont need to have anyone change my mind. I have a mind. I use it, i see it, i hear the comments made by some people from that group about others and they are mean.


Scott L I stated that you can get the same quality training from TDI as you can from GUE. never did i bring up the special qualities of WKKP and how that is an outstanding accomplishment .

If you dont agree with me, that is fine. but you are the stunning example of not letting MY opinion into YOUR brain. I on the other hand wadded through 11 pages of this post before giving my opnion of why posters are mean.

but dont put mine down just because they dont agree with you

Jim I have no interest in getting a thick skin. I would rather just not post on sb. You and I know each other and you know I am a nice person , not mean or malicous, and I have no desire to change that because I was taken by a post my friend made and had my own opinion on the topic. having said that , hope to dive with you soon. next spring seems like a date.

Yes, we have dived together, and I expect to have the pleasure again. Spring sounds a long time off right now.

As for the thick skin comment, that is a reference to posting anything on any internet forum. Not everyone will agree with you, ever, even when you are dead right, and/or some folks will always misunderstand, or disagree with minor points, if not the general message. I have gotten used to the occasional :flame: that comes from expressing my opinion, and even occasionally have been accused of posting provocatively , just to egg some folks on.

As noted in this thread, not everyone who posts is nice and gentle. Sometimes there will be some folks who are downright mean, but I believe there generally is less of that now than say 5 or 6 years ago. Our membership has grown and (mostly anyway) matured over time.

 

[Hepcat62]

On every GUE card I have, the following text appears:

The person named on this card has exceeded the dive industry's most rigorous qualifications for the level listed.

Having gone through the classes, and compared notes with some people I know who've done technical training with e.g. TDI, I think that's absolutely a true statement. I think it's really up to the recipient of that card to interpret that statement for what it is - "Congratulations - you did something really hard. Be proud!". There is, however, always a set of people who like to brag, boast, etc., who interpret that statement as "Congratulations - you're now better than everybody else at the beach". Sometimes these people turn to making condescending remarks, and putting other people down. It's not acceptable, and I know that in our local GUE community (Norcal) a lot of effort has been put into making sure the community is as positive as possible. A lot of this has come from the local instructors, which I think is excellent. I think having a local community of GUE T2/C2 divers with good attitudes also helps to squash this in newly "fundified" divers.

Ultimately, since getting my GUE training I DO dive with non-GUE divers far less often than I used to. The main reason is that I know exactly what to expect. I can expect to have fun (conditions permitting), and have teammates I can count on to have my back (and they can count on me to have theirs). As a result, I can take on more aggressive dives with a level of confidence that let's me enjoy them.

Scott L I stated that you can get the same quality training from TDI as you can from GUE.

A great instructor is a great instructor, so certainly that is true of any agency. That said, what GUE has really brought to the table is institutionalizing quality core instruction. Honestly, their requirements for instructor certification are extremely high relative to the overwhelming majority of the industry.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, there are good instructors all over the place, with all different agencies. GUE is one of a very small group of agencies where I will by and large assume that instructors are good.

 

[*dave*]

I think a lot of people read "mean" into posts that only exists in their own mind. Personally, I can't recall ever having anyone here be mean to me, but I pay more attention to content than delivery and I have very low expectations.

 

[LiteHedded]

I think a lot of people read "mean" into posts that only exists in their own mind. Personally, I can't recall ever having anyone here be mean to me, but I pay more attention to content than delivery and I have very low expectations.

and from what I gathered most of the folks in the original thread weren't DIR anyway

 

[Sas]

I think a lot of people read "mean" into posts that only exists in their own mind. Personally, I can't recall ever having anyone here be mean to me, but I pay more attention to content than delivery and I have very low expectations.

In my experience, tonnes of people are mean/arrogant/snarky here. In that thread there were comments (especially from DevonDiver, which is unusual as he is usually very friendly and helpful, though everyone has their off days including myself) that could easily be taken as snarky. It was just a guy wanting to show off his new gear and there is nothing wrong with that. Intent might be different but there are MANY posters on Scubaboard who manage to make their points without even a hint of snarkiness (OP is good example) so I don't see why others can't. Or if they prefer to be snarky then they can't complain when they get a bad reaction. Personally I have not been bothered by nastiness on SB (and I have experienced a great deal of it) but I have a very thick skin. Not everyone does.

 

[Kevrumbo]

I was reflecting on this the other day, after going back to check a thread where someone had put up a picture of the shiny new kit he had bought, and he got a bunch of fairly short, critical, and not very friendly responses, a number of them from people I know are "us".

I'm a pretty solidly committed DIR diver, myself, and I think there are a lot of good reasons why we use the equipment we do, and the procedures we do. I like the system, and I think everybody on this board knows that I push it (hopefully not too obnoxiously) wherever I see the opportunity to do so, here and IRL.

But my mother always taught me that you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. And i we want to try to communicate a message, it seems to me it would work far better if we were pleasant about it. What's wrong with congratulating someone on their new equipment? And if you must, making a couple of pleasant and constructive observations about long inflators or quick releases, pointing out the reasons why the person might eventually rethink his setup? He's already bought it, anyway; jumping on him about it is much more likely to elicit a defensive reaction and a dislike for "us" than to change what he's bought.

I see this over and over again. Where it comes to things which relate to true safety (like air at 200 feet) I can understand getting short, critical or even just plain unpleasant. But for the simple stuff like wearing a snorkel, having quick releases, and other things relating to recreational diving or even the beginner techie who's doing his first doubles dives, do people really think it's necessary to be so rude? I don't think it makes us any friends.

Groupthink:

Psychologist Irving Janis' original definition of the term was "a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' strivings for unanimity override their motivation to realistically appraise alternative courses of action."

[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR]
[TH]antecedent conditions of groupthink
[/TH]
[TH]symptoms indicative of groupthink
[/TH]
[TH]symptoms of decisions affected by groupthink
[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Insulation of the group
[/TD]
[TD]Illusion of invulnerability
[/TD]
[TD]Incomplete survey of alternatives
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]High group cohesiveness
[/TD]
[TD]Unquestioned belief in the inherent morality of the group
[/TD]
[TD]Incomplete survey of objectives
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Directive leadership
[/TD]
[TD]Collective rationalization of group's decisions
[/TD]
[TD]Failure to examine risks of preferred choice
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lack of norms requiring methodical procedures
[/TD]
[TD]Shared stereotypes of outgroup, particularly opponents
[/TD]
[TD]Failure to re-appraise initially rejected alternatives
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Homogeneity of members' social background and ideology
[/TD]
[TD]Self-censorship; members withhold criticisms
[/TD]
[TD]Poor information search
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]High stress from external threats with low hope of a better solution than the one offered by the leader(s)
[/TD]
[TD]Illusion of unanimity (see false consensus effect)
[/TD]
[TD]Selective bias in processing information at hand (see also confirmation bias)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Direct pressure on dissenters to conform
[/TD]
[TD]Failure to work out contingency plans
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Self-appointed "mindguards" protect the group from negative information
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[LiteHedded]

Kev's post is a treat as always.

 

[nadwidny]

Kev's post is a treat as always.

And wrong as always.