Info Why are tables not taught in OW classes anymore?
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I have a lot of data. So does Pub Med, Elsevier, Academia.edu, Journal of Hyperbaric,...etc. Problem is you all keep cutting and pasting to suit your agendas rather than reading this stuff.
Take any issue: I'll take check lists at the moment. NOW , this is an issue that has been going on for years. PADI for example likes to teach , as many do a mnemonic, something that you remember to remind you to do to increase safety. BUT the issue is NO ONE REMEMBERS THE MNEMONIC, and when they do remember the mnemonic they do not know how to apply it. CLEAR, UN debate-able, unequivocal research has exsisted for years regarding written checklists. BUT do the Big teaching associations, like PADI reccommend a written checklist,...we I suspect because they can't make money selling same they have no interest. Instead we all rely on a memorization that dosn't work. SO WHAT IS THE POINT IN TEACHING THIS??? YOU / many ignore the research. Take a small, plastic card, sew a patch into webbing, as a reminder, simple,...but can anyone bother? Naw, we provide research and you all just ignore it.
I'm telling ya all that a little piece of plastic, no more than one inch x 2 inches, plastered on your harnesses, tanks, etc, can save someone somewhere,...but not going to happen. Personally I would buy it. Personally, the first dive resort that does this can put it on their give away key chains,...this is a money making opportunity, not going to get rich,...but easily done. So why hasn't it?
OP
Typical. Rather than answering a question you move the goal posts to a different subject.
But, OK.
Your first citations includes a picture of a very good friend of mine. He would be ambarassed that you are using that article to try and say something about checklists. the article never mentions checklists.
The second article says a memorized check list is a good as a written one; they key is to use a checklist. You assert that "NO ONE REMEMBERS THE MNEMONIC" (Why are you shouting?). PADI is perfectly happy with you writing down BWRAF, or making up your own mnemonics. They even provide checklist slates in some of the more advanced than OW classes. The point fo course, is to use a checklsit; it doesn't matter wheterh it is written or in your head. No one argues with that.
I think you just make stuff up and then blurt it out, and support wit with arbitrary articles you'v found that you clearly haven't read.
Oh....can you provide even one citation that says the number of scuba incidents (normalized you the number of divers, of course) is increasing? Because until you show me something. I'll assert you just made that up.
But, OK.
Your first citations includes a picture of a very good friend of mine. He would be ambarassed that you are using that article to try and say something about checklists. the article never mentions checklists.
The second article says a memorized check list is a good as a written one; they key is to use a checklist. You assert that "NO ONE REMEMBERS THE MNEMONIC" (Why are you shouting?). PADI is perfectly happy with you writing down BWRAF, or making up your own mnemonics. They even provide checklist slates in some of the more advanced than OW classes. The point fo course, is to use a checklsit; it doesn't matter wheterh it is written or in your head. No one argues with that.
I think you just make stuff up and then blurt it out, and support wit with arbitrary articles you'v found that you clearly haven't read.
Oh....can you provide even one citation that says the number of scuba incidents (normalized you the number of divers, of course) is increasing? Because until you show me something. I'll assert you just made that up.
L13
Contributor
Again, "cutting corners" when selecting citations. None of those discus DCS incident rates let alone suggest that they are increasing. Neither of them discus deficiencies in training with tables/computers. Neither of them suggest that agencies provide insufficient training for tables/computers.
In short they provide no evidence for your previous assertions. Your new rant about checklists is completely irrelevant to either this threads topic or to your previous assertions on this thread.
BUT: your first citation doesn't even mention your new issue of checklists either!!!
So far you are 0/3 on citations relevant to your original assertions, and only 1/2 for your latest post. All of which were posted by you, so no "cutting and pasting" by anyone else.
Wild assertions, no relevant citations, moving goal posts :
"The second article says a memorized check list is a good as a written one;"
Here are the important point from this public research,....
"With adjustment for covariates, written checklist users
reported 69% fewer major mishaps (95% CI: 0.10, 0.93),
53% fewer total mishaps (95% CI: 0.27, 0.83), and 56%
fewer unsafe conditions (95% CI: 0.22, 0.87) (Table 4)."
"Conclusions
Our study suggests that the incidence of recreational
diving mishaps is substantial and the prevalence of
routine use of written checklists is low. The routine use
of a written pre-dive checklist, irrespective of its source
and content, was associated with fewer mishaps and
unsafe conditions during the specific dives under study.
The results of our study suggests that routine use of
written pre-dive checklists is an effective tool for pro-
moting diving safety. The use of memorized checklists
was similar to not using any checklist at all; hence the
use of written checklists should be encouraged, instead."
sorry, this couldn't be more clearer,.....
Apparently someone can not read. Or perhaps it is an issue with full sentences? And then you start yelling troll, or just flat out say something is black when it is white.
You wrote: "The second article says a memorized check list is a good as a written one;"
You wrote this, not me. And it is completely an erroneous statement, by choice. And then when you don't get your way, you start flaming anyone who disagrees with you.
Someone has gone to great lengths to do this kind of research for the benefit of all,...and you just say it isn't true. Apparently you know best, god help us all,......
Here are the important point from this public research,....
"With adjustment for covariates, written checklist users
reported 69% fewer major mishaps (95% CI: 0.10, 0.93),
53% fewer total mishaps (95% CI: 0.27, 0.83), and 56%
fewer unsafe conditions (95% CI: 0.22, 0.87) (Table 4)."
"Conclusions
Our study suggests that the incidence of recreational
diving mishaps is substantial and the prevalence of
routine use of written checklists is low. The routine use
of a written pre-dive checklist, irrespective of its source
and content, was associated with fewer mishaps and
unsafe conditions during the specific dives under study.
The results of our study suggests that routine use of
written pre-dive checklists is an effective tool for pro-
moting diving safety. The use of memorized checklists
was similar to not using any checklist at all; hence the
use of written checklists should be encouraged, instead."
sorry, this couldn't be more clearer,.....
Apparently someone can not read. Or perhaps it is an issue with full sentences? And then you start yelling troll, or just flat out say something is black when it is white.
You wrote: "The second article says a memorized check list is a good as a written one;"
You wrote this, not me. And it is completely an erroneous statement, by choice. And then when you don't get your way, you start flaming anyone who disagrees with you.
Someone has gone to great lengths to do this kind of research for the benefit of all,...and you just say it isn't true. Apparently you know best, god help us all,......
OP
Stop feeding the troll. The more you feed, the more inflammatory dreck he spews back.
You trying to set me up again?
You need to realize first of all that in the scuba world, world wide Everyone has a vested interest in NOT reporting "incidents," DAN, in almost every research effort continually laments that they do not have a complete or accurate picture. The data is however out there. And considering other sources LIKE the NY Local 147, they keep good data sets, current, the insurance companies keep current records, etc, we need to trudge through the medical records of many different counties. AND which country, and you can check yourself, I'm not doing anyone homework anymore,... AUSTRALIA! The land where you need a hydro every year. Canberra takes incidents very seriously, and they are reporting that medically this resurgence has in fact increased the incidence rate. Other countries, Italy, etc, and ya I'm not going to do anyone's home work for them, and ya I fully expect you all to say I', ducking your "proof" but I have noticed even when I do provide proof, you all just ignore it anyways.
You do realize that all of the "reports" from DAN, and other places is years old? Meaning many have to extrapolate from the existing data we can find, where we can find it. We can also look at new certifications and statistically use this info compared with incidents we do have and use statistics to make inferences. And these inferences,...this is what has more than a few concerned,...
ESPECIALLY Senior women.
Point being recreational scuba is undergoing a bit of an increase at the moment. Numbers of bad stuff is increasing,...you can either continue to dispute my opinions, which will soon be written up somewhere,...or learn from everyone's concern about this recent trend. I know you care about health and safety,...get on board, promote safety, or not the choice is yours,....
OP
Gang, (This includes ALL that are responding and posting, even YOU!!)
This is the "Basic" forum!! Also, AFAIK, calling others "trolls" is against T&C of SB. Calling others "trolls" appears to be a technique to silence people with different line of thinking and who challenge the line of thought dominating SB. This is happening frequently. I don't care about who is right or who is wrong and I don't necessarily share either side's point of view, but there is more bickering and name calling here than there is real information exchange.
Please listen, read, understand, comprehend, think and pause for few minutes BEFORE you let your fingers do the typing...
Love, hugs and kisses to you all...
BoltSnap, the peace maker!
This is the "Basic" forum!! Also, AFAIK, calling others "trolls" is against T&C of SB. Calling others "trolls" appears to be a technique to silence people with different line of thinking and who challenge the line of thought dominating SB. This is happening frequently. I don't care about who is right or who is wrong and I don't necessarily share either side's point of view, but there is more bickering and name calling here than there is real information exchange.
Please listen, read, understand, comprehend, think and pause for few minutes BEFORE you let your fingers do the typing...
Love, hugs and kisses to you all...
BoltSnap, the peace maker!
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