Info Why are tables not taught in OW classes anymore?

[homerdoc]

Isn't this "Chemical Engineering"? What does it have to do with programing and "FORTRAN"?

You have to learn a programming language in order to get your degree (most never use it again) - you have a couple classes that use it - way back in the day it was fortran. Its something else today.

 

[Belzelbub]

don’t get me wrong, I’m A strong advocate for computers and think everyone should dive with one. As I said, I will not dive with someone who doesn’t use a computer. I just think we should all have a basic knowledge of tables. You dont need to use them to plan every dive, but at least know how to use them.

I don't see a downside to learning tables. But, I don't think a class that doesn't teach tables is necessarily turning out bad divers. If the divers are going to use a computer, they don't necessarily need to know how to use a table as long as they understand the basics of what is behind the table.

This next part isn't directed at you, but I did see some other comments in this thread that made me think of this. There are some who seem to equate the tables with the decompression model, or algorithm. The table is a simplified output of the model. The computers also use algorithms to calculate in real-time or plan dives.

Ultimately, the instructor needs to understand if the students are understanding what is happening. If they need to dust off their table to get it to click, then that's what they should do. However, it should be made clear that table use may not be required for future use IF diving with a computer.

 

[scubadada]

To answer @tursiops question, tables are no longer taught in OW classes to give SB members something to endlessly discuss over 2 months, 65 pages, and almost 650 posts.



Edit: I knew I could get people to agree . In all seriousness, @tursiops expertly answered his own question in the original post, go back and read it.

 

[ChrisDee]

This:

"DECOMPRESSION MODEL
The program within the xxxx simulates the absorption of inert gases into the body by using a mathematical model. This model is merely a way to apply a limited set of data to a large range of experiences. The xxxx dive computer model is based upon the latest research and experiments in decompression theory. Still, using the xxxx, just as using any other No Decompression Tables, is no guarantee of avoiding decompression sickness, i.e. “the bends”. Every diver’s physiology is different, and can even vary from day to day. No machine can predict how your body will react to a particular dive profile."

This or something similar is printed and/ or installed in every dive computer made.

God forbid we increase the 8 hour eLearning course to actually take the time to learn how things work.

Page 48, of the attachment,... for some of you,.... welcome to my world. And as far as the accident rate, please publish your source, when you make a claim like that, sometimes you should back it up. Because FYI, the "accident rate is increasing."

This may assist some: Safety Priorities and Underestimations in Recreational Scuba Diving Operations: A European Study Supporting the Implementation of New Risk Management Programmes

Issues with data collection and fatality statistics:

"DAN utilizes data collected over the past ten years in an effort to generate more accurate reports. Unfortunately, there is no mandatory reporting for diving-related fatalities, so the final number we report depends on the availability of data and efficacy of the data collection process."

 

[inquis]

Personal differences WERE covered in my OW training. Plus, it's just common sense. I'm not young any more, so I've upped the conservatism on my dive computer, don't hit the double-black mountain bike trails any more, etc.

 

[boulderjohn]

don’t get me wrong, I’m A strong advocate for computers and think everyone should dive with one. As I said, I will not dive with someone who doesn’t use a computer. I just think we should all have a basic knowledge of tables. You dont need to use them to plan every dive, but at least know how to use them.

I haven't the foggiest idea why someone who understands decompression theory and who knows how to use a dive computer benefits from knowing how to work a table.

 

[lowwall]

This:

"DECOMPRESSION MODEL
...Every diver’s physiology is different, and can even vary from day to day. No machine can predict how your body will react to a particular dive profile."

This or something similar is printed and/ or installed in every dive computer made.

God forbid we increase the 8 hour eLearning course to actually take the time to learn how things work.

You've been pretty long on pronouncements, but short on practicality. What do you want instructors to teach exactly? All the courses already mention the part you have in red.

I don't see what else they can do unless you can quantify something. How many minutes/meters do you think divers should back off from the NDL numbers produced by the tables if they are fat/hungover/tired/old/whatever?

 

[boulderjohn]

You've been pretty long on pronouncements, but short on practicality. What do you want instructors to teach exactly? All the courses already mention the part you have in red.

I don't see what else they can do unless you can quantify something. How many minutes/meters do you think divers should back off from the NDL numbers produced by the tables if they are fat/hungover/tired/old/whatever?

As I have mentioned in previous posts, he refuses to answer any question like that.

In a recent post, I tried to get him to answer what he means when he says we need to teach the "who, what, where, and why" of decompression theory, and I gave some examples to see if that is what he means. He did not respond, but he liked the post, suggesting agreement. If so, then he believes that divers will be safer if they know the history of decompression theory, including the work of people like Bert, Haldane, Workman, Bühlmann, Spencer, Rogers, Yates, Wienke, Doolette, etc.

Other than that, I have no idea what instructors should do differently.

 

[ChrisDee]

"Other than that, I have no idea what instructors should do differently."

There are over 80 different worldwide Agencies, Associations, Federations, and Clubs, most all sort of recognized that teach, or better said skimp on teaching DCS. You see DCS ruins the vibe of a 8 hour e Learning course. I get a real kick when so many say DCS is taught, when worldwide it barley makes 2 sentences in any e Learning class.

Incidents are on the rise, worldwide, but yet so many state that safety is better,...and provide no proof.

Every Major certifying agency devotes about 2 sentences in their certification e Learning , online course,...

The following attached, brief story is what has happened to DCS issues, it just ruins the vibe of the course,......

The attached is exactly what these agencies have done,....they are cutting corners.

 

[boulderjohn]

"Other than that, I have no idea what instructors should do differently."

There are over 80 different worldwide Agencies, Associations, Federations, and Clubs, most all sort of recognized that teach, or better said skimp on teaching DCS. You see DCS ruins the vibe of a 8 hour e Learning course. I get a real kick when so many say DCS is taught, when worldwide it barley makes 2 sentences in any e Learning class.

Incidents are on the rise, worldwide, but yet so many state that safety is better,...and provide no proof.

Every Major certifying agency devotes about 2 sentences in their certification e Learning , online course,...

The following attached, brief story is what has happened to DCS issues, it just ruins the vibe of the course,......

The attached is exactly what these agencies have done,....they are cutting corners.

Wow! So much to say in response to this.

1. The attached article does not in any way say anything at all about DCS issues and instruction. It warns against using cheap dive operations for your diving, operations that cut corners to save money and don't provide adequate dive experiences. It does not offer a word about agencies or instruction. In other words, it has nothing whatsoever to do with this discussion and proves nothing.

2. You wrote, "Incidents are on the rise, worldwide, but yet so many state that safety is better,...and provide no proof." You in turn do not offer any evidence that incidents are on the rise worldwide. We have to take your word for it. I have read a lot about this over the years, and I am not aware of any increase in DCS worldwide.

3. You say that e-learning classes provide only 2 sentences about decompression theory, but you offer no proof of that--how would you even know about the agencies for which you do no teaching? E-learning students have to pass an in-person final exam that includes questions about decompression theory. I have taught students who learned both ways, and the e-learning students generally do much better on those exams than traditional students.

4. What does this have to do with tables and computers?

So, once again, are you saying that divers will be much safer in terms of DCS if they know about things like Haldane's work with animals (including most famously goats) at the turn of the 20th century?