Info Why are tables not taught in OW classes anymore?

[VikingDives]

Really? That’s pretty shocking to me. I thought the tables were pretty easy to use. I retained it the 7 years between my first OW and second. Haven’t actually used a table in well over a decade for diving, but could still use it.

It's been a few years so maybe I'm forgetting someone. It seems to me that the folks who found tables easy (a minority) are the one's arguing that tables are useful (not saying that's you, but generally in this thread). They probably are for some people - I taught a few engineers who picked them up right away, but for the majority of adults, it's just drudgery.

Kids had an even harder time than adults did. I used to dread having kids in class, because I knew they'd need remediation. My kids were no exception. Their instructors taught them tables, and both failed the RDP test. I had to spend a couple of hours working with them, and neither's an idiot - IQs over 140.

Most people aren't math people. The next time you walk up to a cashier, if your bill is $5.21, hand them 5.72 and watch the confused expressions (it's better if the cash register isn't digital).

 

[boulderjohn]

I asked you some questions before, and you didn't answer any of them. I will try again.

It is this simplistic math,...that is really the crux of an issue that rears its head, year after year.

What issue is rearing its head, year after year? Are you talking about DCS cases? Statistically, only a very tiny percentage of dives result in DCS, and there has been no increase in that percentage since computers became the norm. If you have information to the contrary, please provide it.

As far as research, it is this very same research that is telling us as a whole, we are doing a very poor job of teaching the who, what, and why of DCS.

Where is that research indicating that we are doing a very poor job of teaching the who, what, and why of DCS? While you are providing that research, can you explain what "the who, what, and why of DCS" means?

Not taking your head off here Koko, and kudos to you for teaching tables. But this whole dependency is fostering a culture of increased risk taking right under everyone's nose.

Can you provide links to the research indicating we have developed "a culture of increased risk taking"?

We do everyone a great disservice by attempting to simplify this issue by putting all of our eggs in one computers basket.

So what should we do instead? Should we all carry 5-6 different computers running different algorithms and decide during the dive which one we will follow? If so, how will we make that decision?

And these and this issue need to be easily understood and accepted.

That would be great. I would love to understand it, but, as you can see from my questions, I don't understand it, and I can't accept it until I understand it.

Instead we have come to unquestionably rely with out understanding why on an inanimate object, that at current is incapable of fully guaranteeing anyone's safety. Because of the nature of how they work combined with taking the easy road. Which has a severe cost to many individuals worldwide each and every year.

Computers don't guarantee everyone's safety. Neither do tables. You can guarantee yourself safe from DCS by staying in bed, but that would greatly limit your dive time.

So in all your rants, I assume there is a hidden prescription for what we need to do, but I can't find it. Can you take a couple of sentences and describe what we should be doing instead of what we are doing now?

 

[dmaziuk]

Most people aren't math people. The next time you walk up to a cashier, if your bill is $5.21, hand them 5.72 and watch the confused expressions (it's better if the cash register isn't digital).

They print $5.72 bills where you live? Or mint two-cent coins? The first rule of analogies is all analogies suck.

The tables' only relationship to math in the "teach tables" sense, is that you need to do some very basic arithmetics in order to use them, and even that: not in all cases. And if I needed to use them now, I'd have to look it up on gootube or someplace: I "learned tables", I just don't remember them. Because I never used them for an actual dive, and it's been a few years since I used them to pre-plan a day of shore diving on Curacao.

 

[homerdoc]

I come down on dive tables (I have one in my dive kit every trip) like I do a slide rule - my grandpa gave me one, I know how to use but not sure the value today when my phone can do everything it does.

Conceptionally you should understand it, but I am not sure the value of using it when technological advancements have made it so much easier.

My daughter who is a freshman ChE had the same discussion about coding - I told her thank goodness you arent using FORTRAN but learn it so you understand what is going on in the background and can call BS.

 

[boulderjohn]

The tables' only relationship to math in the "teach tables" sense, is that you need to do some very basic arithmetics in order to use them, and even that: not in all cases.

Mostly addition, with the more complicated ones going to double digits.

 

[scrane]

Using tables makes as much sense to me as performing long division.

 

[boulderjohn]

You all are promoting blind acceptance of a "theory" and a "hypothesis" instead of teaching the: Who, What, Where, and Why of a thing.

I am still trying to figure out what you mean by this comment that you later repeat, and since you won't explain it, please let me try a few different possibilities.

Are you saying that students need to know that John Haldane (who) developed the first decompression table (what) in England (where) to help people avoid decompression sickness (why)?​

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Are you saying that students need to know that Albert Buhlmann (who) tweaked his tables to account for altitude (what), which was tested by Swiss divers (who) in Lake Titicaca (where) in 1987 (when) because a previous group of Swiss divers (who) had previously gotten decompression sickness (why) when diving at altitude?​

Is this the sort of thing you are saying we all need to understand to dive safely?

 

[BoltSnap]

ChE

Isn't this "Chemical Engineering"? What does it have to do with programing and "FORTRAN"?

 

[Umpman]

They are both tools. While I was taught using tables, and my daughters were taught that as well, I really don't use them that much. It's just simpler for me to use the computer. The problem you describe above, doesn't really have anything to do with not knowing tables. It has more to do with not understanding the basics of decompression theory. There really is no problem hanging out on the deck for a bit, then dropping lower with either tables or a computer. With tables, you have a new max depth, to figure. Hopefully the dive time doesn't exceed. With a computer at least, the computer will recalculate. If the diver doesn't pay attention to the computer, then I really don't know what to say to that. Whatever tool you use, if you don't know how to use it, it's just not going to help you.

I can't recall the last dive I did where there was a diver without a computer. This includes OW checkout dives I did with my daughters. In fact, I'm pretty sure the last dive I did where not all divers had a computer was back before 2006 or so. And the sole diver without a computer then was me. Since then, I've converted and made sure I understood how to use these tools.

don’t get me wrong, I’m A strong advocate for computers and think everyone should dive with one. As I said, I will not dive with someone who doesn’t use a computer. I just think we should all have a basic knowledge of tables. You dont need to use them to plan every dive, but at least know how to use them.

 

[TMHeimer]

don’t get me wrong, I’m A strong advocate for computers and think everyone should dive with one. As I said, I will not dive with someone who doesn’t use a computer. I just think we should all have a basic knowledge of tables. You dont need to use them to plan every dive, but at least know how to use them.

I suppose I agree. As I probably said many pages ago, you won't know how to use them because you understood them when they were explained to you (like they used to be in classrooms). You have to do a dive plan on them once in a while. I do one every day (alternating with a Nitrox one). I just keep doing the same problems from the courses I took forever ago. But, I'm long retired with lots of time on my hands...