DIR- GUE Why are non-GUE divers so interested in what GUE does?

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So if person signed up and paid for a GUE course and stated to the instructor…….
I don't recommend that approach for reasons that have little to do with GUE (which I've had no training from) or even recreational diving specifically; the thinking applies when seeking any professional service, whether training, medical services, etc...

I understand you may see this as heading off trouble, but it may cause it. A professional who is the sort of abrasive 'butthole' you wish to avoid might indeed get ticked and end things before they get started, but most instructors probably are not that type, and there's a cost to be paid in making a bad impression.

Most of us don't meet a physician, nurse, coach, instructor or other professional services provider for the first time and open with a statement demonstrating we believe rude, unprofessional behavior by them is sufficiently likely the possibility should be anticipated and addressed before there's any evidence of it. A limit-setting statement prior to any offense gives the impression you've had negative input about the profession and are guarded against it, may be a bit entitled and paranoid, and are prone to interpret ill intent.

In other words, it sends the message 'I've heard bad things about you people and I feel threatened by and guarded toward you.' You wrote:

“Hey, just want you to know right up front that I’m taking this course strictly for the training, the skills, the equipment considerations and confidence building and I am 100% onboard with constructive critique and honest evaluation…….. but I’ve heard some stories on SB about GUE courses and you should know that I won’t be putting up with any verbal non-respectful **** from you or your team… and that you can expect that exact same level of respect from me……. are we cool with that?”
A fair paraphrase might be 'I'm putting you on notice up front before I get to know you that I don't trust you and will not take your crap.' (It also conveys the impression people on SB trash-talk GUE, poisoning students against them at the start).

A good professional may conceal his eye roll and sigh, and present a positive, respectful, professionally reassuring manner, but still have a negative internal reaction to you (and ScubaBoard).

It's customary to give people the benefit of the doubt until they forfeit it through misbehavior. Some people travel far and pay significant money for GUE training, so exchanging some e-mails and listening to word-of-mouth from former students seems wise.
 
In reading through this thread it seems to me that there may be a general perception from some Non GUE divers that GUE courses MAY involve some levels of "hazing" or verbal disparagement or derision from certain instructors… I have no idea or evidence if that’s the actually the case so I am not passing any judgement……..but some of the stories we’ve heard here tend to indicate that some of that MAY go on. Post #822 is particularly disturbing…. And although I don’t know him, Doc Harry seems like a square shooter.

If someone is an ******* they're an *******. If everyone is an ******* you're the *******.

I've taken a few classes now and dove with quiet a few other instructors. I've never experienced anything other than a positive supportive environment. If you show up with ego and without the skills to back it up honest feedback about your deficiency will seem like a personal attack.

People have a hard time going from thinking they're king **** to struggling in a basic class. This isn't unique to diving you see the same thing in high-performance driving education, BJJ, shooting sports most people have never held an objective lens with quantitative standards to what the do.

The question becomes when that lens is applied are you learning agile enough to grow, or is everyone an *******.
 
If someone is an ******* they're an *******. If everyone is an ******* you're the *******.

I've taken a few classes now and dove with quiet a few other instructors. I've never experienced anything other than a positive supportive environment. If you show up with ego and without the skills to back it up honest feedback about your deficiency will seem like a personal attack.

People have a hard time going from thinking they're king **** to struggling in a basic class. This isn't unique to diving you see the same thing in high-performance driving education, BJJ, shooting sports most people have never held an objective lens with quantitative standards to what the do.

The question becomes when that lens is applied are you learning agile enough to grow, or is everyone an *******.
So as the OP, your question about why Non GUE Divers are interested in what GUE divers do was BS or just "baiting" because you don't like my answer. After 800 + responses I stated honestly and exactly why I as a Non GUE diver am interested in what GUE divers do. If you actually read my post you would see that I stated that I am 100% and totally onboard with honest feedback about any and all of my deficiencies. What I am not onboard with is the verbal abuse and degradation tactics as was clearly expressed by Doc Harry in post 822. Anyone reading this should go and read post 822 and then make your own assessment.

The fact that you or any GUE diver or instructer would not 100% agree that 100% mutual respect is key.......tells me all I need to know about GUE.
 
So as the OP, your question about why Non GUE Divers are interested in what GUE divers do was BS or just "baiting" because you don't like my answer. After 800 + responses I stated honestly and exactly why I as a Non GUE diver am interested in what GUE divers do. If you actually read my post you would see that I stated that I am 100% and totally onboard with honest feedback about any and all of my deficiencies. What I am not onboard with is the verbal abuse and degradation tactics as was clearly expressed by Doc Harry in post 822. Anyone reading this should go and read post 822 and then make your own assessment.

The fact that you or any GUE diver or instructer would not 100% agree that 100% mutual respect is key.......tells me all I need to know about GUE.
I referring to Doc Harrys account
 
So was I. Post 822.
If one guy has a problem with everyone it's in my experience the problem normally is them.

Where did I ever say that mutual trust and respect wasn't important?
 
In reading through this thread it seems to me that there may be a general perception from some Non GUE divers that GUE courses MAY involve some levels of "hazing" or verbal disparagement or derision from certain instructors… I have no idea or evidence if that’s the actually the case so I am not passing any judgement……..but some of the stories we’ve heard here tend to indicate that some of that MAY go on. Post #822 is particularly disturbing…. And although I don’t know him, Doc Harry seems like a square shooter.

And to respond to the OP, it's stories like Doc's that make some Non-GUE divers "interested" in what GUE does.

So if person signed up and paid for a GUE course and stated to the instructor……. “Hey, just want you to know right up front that I’m taking this course strictly for the training, the skills, the equipment considerations and confidence building and I am 100% onboard with constructive critique and honest evaluation…….. but I’ve heard some stories on SB about GUE courses and you should know that I won’t be putting up with any verbal non-respectful **** from you or your team… and that you can expect that exact same level of respect from me……. are we cool with that?”

I can say that as a now retired PADI instructor, when I WAS teaching, I would have responded with something like…. “ I can assure you that these types of stories are not how either PADI or I roll, and yes I am cool with that. Now let’s go diving”.

Would most GUE instructors and DM's also be “cool” with that?
As an institution, GUE very much seems to be in line with that approach. Here’s why I think that:

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That question is part of the mandatory QC form that has to be filled out by the student before the course is completed. The form is sent anonymously to the instructor’s Instructor Evaluator, regardless of the seniority of said instructor.

Sure, just asking the question doesn’t guarantee that behaviour won’t happen. But I don’t see a lot of organizations with such a robust commitment to genuine quality control, and that gives me a lot of faith that the behaviour described in comments above is not a widespread component of current GUE courses.
 
If one guy has a problem with everyone it's in my experience the problem normally is them.

Where did I ever say that mutual trust and respect wasn't important?
Don't know and don't care. All I said was that I feel that Doc Harry's story in post 822 seems genuine. Mutual respect IS extremely important. If you disagree with that.... then that's between you and yourself.
 
Due to a lot of work the past 18 months, relocating to a much colder country were drysuit is necessary, and some other expenses that have delayed ordering a drysuit, I have been left depressingly dry for months. After my GUE-F I had a commendable trim and buoyancy skills for a newbie with less than 70 dives. After 8-9 months without a single dive I finally went for a dive with a GUE buddy and a GUE-I friend, and oh boy, I haven't sucked more in my life. I though I was in 0 trim, when in reality I was at 45 degrees.
I have heard stories of teams who showed up for Cave 1 not having dived for like a year after getting a tech pass. It was an expensive way to get a fundies refresher.
 
You may want to go in contact with people working with DPAA and Project Recover, they are working on body recoveries of ww2 airman and for the last 5 years they had some great success using rebreathers to find remains at depths over 50m in the Adriatic.
I was very impressed with their procedures and general diving skills.
The statement is actually in the Advanced Mixed Gas Rebreather Standards, https://www.tdisdi.com/wp-content/uploads/files/sandp/currentYear/TDI/part 2/pdf/individual/TDI Diver Standards_34_Advanced_Mixed_Gas_CCR_Unit_Specific_Diver.pdf

"Proper understanding and implementation of team bailout procedures" could very well include a discussion about how it can break down under some circumstances.
That's just an example, and I just finished a TDI AMG course, during the course, we are asked to implement during deep dive. Personally, I disagree with using team bailout for many reasons. However, it is undeniable that many agencies allow or even ask for team bailout.

Let me show you what other agencies said.
RESA (2018:23): "Demonstrate proper understanding and implementation of team bailout procedures and conduct a team bailout from a depth greater than 40 meters"
Available at: https://www.rebreather.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/RESA-_V2.0.pdf

Even your NSS-CDS (2019:64) said requires the underwater practice of "Exit the cave while simulating a rebreather failure and exchanging bailout cylinders in accordance with team bailout procedures."
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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