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DIR- GUE Why are non-GUE divers so interested in what GUE does?
- Thread starter crofrog
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In reading through this thread it seems to me that there may be a general perception from some Non GUE divers that GUE courses MAY involve some levels of "hazing" or verbal disparagement or derision from certain instructors… I have no idea or evidence if that’s the actually the case so I am not passing any judgement……..but some of the stories we’ve heard here tend to indicate that some of that MAY go on. Post #822 is particularly disturbing…. And although I don’t know him, Doc Harry seems like a square shooter.
And to respond to the OP, it's stories like Doc's that make some Non-GUE divers "interested" in what GUE does.
So if person signed up and paid for a GUE course and stated to the instructor……. “Hey, just want you to know right up front that I’m taking this course strictly for the training, the skills, the equipment considerations and confidence building and I am 100% onboard with constructive critique and honest evaluation…….. but I’ve heard some stories on SB about GUE courses and you should know that I won’t be putting up with any verbal non-respectful **** from you or your team… and that you can expect that exact same level of respect from me……. are we cool with that?”
I can say that as a now retired PADI instructor, when I WAS teaching, I would have responded with something like…. “ I can assure you that these types of stories are not how either PADI or I roll, and yes I am cool with that. Now let’s go diving”.
Would most GUE instructors and DM's also be “cool” with that?
And to respond to the OP, it's stories like Doc's that make some Non-GUE divers "interested" in what GUE does.
So if person signed up and paid for a GUE course and stated to the instructor……. “Hey, just want you to know right up front that I’m taking this course strictly for the training, the skills, the equipment considerations and confidence building and I am 100% onboard with constructive critique and honest evaluation…….. but I’ve heard some stories on SB about GUE courses and you should know that I won’t be putting up with any verbal non-respectful **** from you or your team… and that you can expect that exact same level of respect from me……. are we cool with that?”
I can say that as a now retired PADI instructor, when I WAS teaching, I would have responded with something like…. “ I can assure you that these types of stories are not how either PADI or I roll, and yes I am cool with that. Now let’s go diving”.
Would most GUE instructors and DM's also be “cool” with that?
MidOH
Banned
[If you said that to me, verbal non respect is ALL you'd get.
I mean, if you want all of your instructors to call you something silly like ''Lady Buttercup", thats a great way to do it.]
I mean, if you want all of your instructors to call you something silly like ''Lady Buttercup", thats a great way to do it.]
I think everyone wins, then: such instructors don't have to deal with "buttercups" (which is somehow an insult?); students get an early red flag about instructor's abusive tendencies and can avoid them, and let others know to avoid them as well.
With a bit of time, economic pressures will guide those kinds of instructors into an early retirement, allowing for more professional folks to take their place, ones that can provide constructive feedback and patient guidance to their students, rather than bully them (in what's likely a reflection of their own inadequacies as teachers, rather than anything else, but that's somewhat besides the point)
The part of this that gets me going is the "..essential skills and techniques constituting sound diving practice- an analysis of which has been noticeably absent from the repertoires of most dive educators'
Most dive educators?? So you know all of them and have seen them train enough to make such a statement? This is a statement that reeks of elitism with no basis in reality. That is unless you consider the GUE way the only sound diving practices.
The number of instructors I know that teach the "essential skills and techniques constituting sound diving practices" is larger than the ones I know that are teaching techniques that I would not consider ideal...but they are still teaching sound practices. and yes I know I have not seen every instructor and there are many out there still teaching on the knees, etc.
I would also like to touch on the Cave 2 course where a "thinking diver" is first introduced in the GUE system. Why so far down the road? We should be developing thinking divers from the start rather than clones who just follow without thought as to why other than what they are told.
In the system I teach, a thinking diver starts right from the OWC. Yes, you are taught skills and best practices and why they are best practices is discussed (just like GUE) but it is not a commandment. Think it through, have conversations around the those practices and maybe we can even evolve them. I cherish those conversations.
I was told that it was stupid that I dive SM in open ocean reef dives. "SM is a tool only needed for cave or wreck penetration" As a thinking diver, I thought long and hard about the configuration and the benefits as well as any drawbacks. The biggest benefit for me is independent redundancy that does necessitate me going to a buddy to solve my issues. Now, I am also tech trained in BM doubles and for me, I will always choose SM. Not because it is the latest craze or because some think it is cool, but because for the type of diving I am doing, it makes the most sense. After making the decision to use SM for almost all of my diving, I have put in a ridiculous number of hours in it, working to perfect my skills, drilling failures and becoming the best SM diver I can be (as well as the best SM instructor I can be). There are many ways to dive SM, I feel the way I set it up and dive it is the best way based on experience and testing of different configs as well as lengthy discussions with other SM divers and instructors. Due to this, my students are taught SM the way I dive it but we have many a discussions during surface intervals and in the classroom as to why I chose what I chose and what their options are post-class. They usually tell me options they are considering and we discuss why it may or may not be the best for the diving they are doing and want to progress towards in the future. A true thinking diver!
Oh and in my first RAID tech course I took, we work as a team with many DIR components but being a thinking diver was a huge part of that course which gave me the skills and knowledge that shaped who I am as a diver and instructor today.
So if someone said that your first thought is to bully them the entire time?
I find that to be quite disrespectful. I think an open and honest statement about expectations such as the one you responded to is great. It gives the instructor the chance to say "nope, you do not want to take my course" or "sounds good to me"I come from a military background and love that style of training but I had one instructor who did nothing but degrade me and my team the entire time. You never did anything good. It all sucked and we were all going to die. All that did was turn us off to him. We eventually all stopped listening to anything he had to say. There is a way to train people using what many call "tough love" but without verbal abuse. You can tell divers things like "what you did at 17 minutes runtime killed all of you" but you also need to give some positive reinforcement and feedback.
Maybe you should read this on the HFID blog...and yes, I am very aware that Gareth is a GUE guy but as I stated earlier, we can all learn from everyone else and take what we need to be the best we can be. Which is why I follow along to what GUE posts as well as what many other groups and organizations post.
MidOH
Banned
So if someone said that your first thought is to bully them the entire time?
I come from a military background and love that style of training but I had one instructor who did nothing but degrade me and my team the entire time. You never did anything good. It all sucked and we were all going to die. All that did was turn us off to him. We eventually all stopped listening to anything he had to say. There is a way to train people using what many call "tough love" but without verbal abuse. You can tell divers things like "what you did at 17 minutes runtime killed all of you" but you also need to give some positive reinforcement and feedback.
Maybe you should read this on the HFID blog...and yes, I am very aware that Gareth is a GUE guy but as I stated earlier, we can all learn from everyone else and take what we need to be the best we can be. Which is why I follow along to what GUE posts as well as what many other groups and organizations post.
My point exactly. I have a hunch that he mistook tough love, or a friendly ribbing, the wrong way.
If youre inevitable chum, then youre chum. Theres no point in being coy about it.
mariosx
Contributor
Most, if not all of them, would be OK with that. At the same time, all of them will look you extremely weird and for sure judge you negatively, because you throw some pretty charged assumptions there, and just asking can be offensive. If I was a GUE instructor I might be one of the few that might simply refuse to teach you, because it seems that you bring some baggage, and negative attitude towards the class, and you feel sharing it with me just because you read some random stuff online. I wouldn't never degrade you as a student, as a GUE-I, but also I wouldn't think that you came in the class with an open mind, making my life easier. I wouldn't think that I need to prove you by example "that I am one of the cool ones that are not assholes" because I won't be paid to resolve insecurities. I woould be paid to train divers that want to become better. It's not like that there not a constant queue of people willing to take the class and have a very positive mindset.
Imagine going on a first date and start by saying "Hey, just want you to know right up front that I am seeing you as a potential mother of my kids, and I will not tolerate cheating, passive aggressiveness, drama, etc.". Yeah, good luck with your date.
I found the tone of my instructors in tech 1 and cave 1 consistent with the severity of the training I was receiving.
Failing to demonstrate good enough skills or violating standards has led to painful and slow terrifying deaths, those accidents which paved the way for the standards we practice
You really don’t get a strong understanding of that without some elevated voices or strained tones
I had a teammate on a class confide in the other two that he found the instructor rude and that the tone was unecessary. I found it consistent with the previous classes and other types of training I had received and found a lot of value and weight in how it was taught
It can be pretty subjective based on your life experience with that kind of motivation and training
Someone with a military background would probably find it familiar, others not so much
I was lucky enough to take a course that was an instructor evaluation with a very experienced gue instructor and wkpp diver.
Halfway through the course we each individually had a discussion with that instructor about whether we thought that cave diving was really for us.
Many would feel slighted or offended at the thought that the person you’re paying to teach would question your bravery or desire to continue the training
But like I said the experience of these gue courses is very subjective based on the person taking the course
Some love it, some don’t, the only way to find out is to sign up for one!
Failing to demonstrate good enough skills or violating standards has led to painful and slow terrifying deaths, those accidents which paved the way for the standards we practice
You really don’t get a strong understanding of that without some elevated voices or strained tones
I had a teammate on a class confide in the other two that he found the instructor rude and that the tone was unecessary. I found it consistent with the previous classes and other types of training I had received and found a lot of value and weight in how it was taught
It can be pretty subjective based on your life experience with that kind of motivation and training
Someone with a military background would probably find it familiar, others not so much
I was lucky enough to take a course that was an instructor evaluation with a very experienced gue instructor and wkpp diver.
Halfway through the course we each individually had a discussion with that instructor about whether we thought that cave diving was really for us.
Many would feel slighted or offended at the thought that the person you’re paying to teach would question your bravery or desire to continue the training
But like I said the experience of these gue courses is very subjective based on the person taking the course
Some love it, some don’t, the only way to find out is to sign up for one!
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