Where do you draw the line?

[Heads Up]

In the UK, we have had a series of deaths this year involving students undergoing OW training under the supervison of an instructor. The Health & Safety Executive (a government organisation not directly linked to diving but responsible for overseeing Health & Safety regulations across all UK industries and businesses) have released a directive that says that all instruction must take place with a suitably qualified third person present (i.e. Rescue Diver or above) in case the instructor gets into dificulties or needs assistance with a student in distress.

As a result, I have just finished a pool session with a load of boy scouts who were doing 'try dives' (its all to do with the Padi Awarenes thing - high Padi profile in the local community). My question is that although I was not instructing, I was responsible for escorting a couple of these kids through their try-dives (there were also 2 dive masters and 2 instructors in the pool). Are there any implications to this?

The way I see it, its a grey area. I wasn't instructing so that can't be an issue. I am a qualified Rescue Diver so that complies with our law of the land. I was happy escorting these kids but when would I have overstepped the mark? When would my 'escorting' have become 'instructing'?

 

[The Chairman]

Hey Heads Up...

I dive master for Boy Scouts all of the time... They have a blast for that short period of time. I am guessing that there was a certified instructor in the pool and that covered you legally. In the Bible according to PADI, as a Dive Master, it is "OK" for me to escort students under the direct supervision of a certified and insured PADI Diving Instructor. However, I don't think this applies to you as a rescue diver UNLESS... the instructor considers you as a DM in training.

Is that cutting a bit fine? Well, I am not sure, but a rescue diver is always welcome in the pool with any of the instructors that I have known. Another set of eyes looking for potential problems is always desired! Legally though, you probably do NOT have any professional dive insurance since you are not considered a professional diver in PADI's eyes. You might be legally open to law suits, unless of course you were a DM candidate, and then your instructor's insurance would cover you.

As I look back on the various instructors that I have DMed for there is a lot of variance in the understanding of these issues. I have had instructors abdicate the initial demonstration of a skill to me (a PADI no-no), and I have had instructors that would not let me help at all (A NetDoc no-no). WHen I am offering my services to the instructor, I am being paid by the experience I gain. Some instructors pay me well, and I learn a lot. Others, I will not DM for anymore.

:tease:

 

[Heads Up]

You basically confirmed what I already thought. I am not officially on my DM course yet (although I will be starting it imminently) so perhaps my instructor was cutting me some slack. I was not being paid for tonight (except with free air and a beer afterwards!!) - would that have an impact?

Also, you were absolutely right - they had an absolute ball tonight!!

 

[The Chairman]

Hey Jay,

I think you have to have signed the standard PADI waiver to get by on this. You might mention that to your instructor, so they can cover their butts. No money has to cross hands (until you really take the class), but he/she should have something in writing that acknowledges you as their student.

Of course, since it is not notorized, you could always fudge the date... NOT that I condone or approve of any such practice!!!

:tease:

 

[rstone]

a DM candidate is NOT a certified assistant and therefor does not fall under the area of being able to lead tours or replace ratios. I know some instructors do in fact do this but PADI does not allow this and is a violation of standards.

Sure having a rescue diver in the pool would be fine as long as the instructor wasnt using him to violate standards.

Also a instructors insurance does NOT cover DM candidates nor does it cover DMs either.. a DM needs his own insurance and since a DM candidate is not a professional he can not apply for insurance since he should not be put in a position of replacing the instructor supervising his students.

A PADI waiver does not apply to DM candidates or non-professionals in other words.. why do you need one since you shouldnt be in direct control anyways.

 

[Heads Up]

and welcome to the board. As I hopefully stated above, I was not 'in charge' of anybody. I was an extra body in the pool so I think I am comfortable with that (as there were also 2 instructors and 2 DM's in the pool supervising).

 

[ScubaBaby]

Heads-Up - I have been in a similar situation.

I am doing my DM course....however long it will take me. But I am not signed up with a Dive company....Belushi is taking me thro the paces....hes harder on me than a normal instructor...he takes away priveledges if i dont do things right!!!

Anyway, i took a 2 groups of 10 students to do trydives with a local diveclub for a college course....I acted as an extra body a lot of the time and I am only classified as Rescue Diver. I think cause you're in a confined pool...not much can really go on and you have instructors in closer proximity and you can easily just take the try-diver to the surface.

However, if something did go wrong, surely it would be the instructors arses that would be fried...you were just an innocent rescue diver trying to keep up with your skills and this try-diver was un-escorted and had problems!!!

 

[The Chairman]

RStone and all,

Lead them on tours in OPEN WATER... surely not. However, (and I would need to consult my moldy old DM manual which should be next to all my other manuals but isn't) it is not considered a "tour" in a confined environment and under the direct supervision of an instructor. Part of my training was to help students master their POOL skills. The stipulation by PADI is that the instructor had to do the INITIAL demonstration and then could pass off the student to a DM or a DM candidate for further practice.

The rules change once in open water, and you can NOT give guided tours of students until you attain your DM rating.

Again, I say this from memory, but until I hear it cited chapter and verse from the PADI DM manual, I will adhere to that standard.

:tease:

 

[rstone]

first off its a misconception that a DM candidate is a assistant.. as far as PADI is considered a "certified assistant is a new or renewed PADI Instructor, PADI Assistant Instructor or PADI Divemaster. No others qualify."
meaning a dmc is not to be used as such.

As for skills.. it states.. "During training, students must receive their initial skills training directly from a teaching-status PADI Instructor. After the initial skills training, you may permit further skills development under the supervision of a CERTIFIED ASSISTANT." however the final evalutation is to be done by the instructor before the student moves on.

 

[The Chairman]

OK, I say initial demonstration, you say initial skills training. Six of one half dozen of the other. It's wonderful that you agree with me on this.

However, the instructor and other DMs were there in the pool so the DM candidate would be under the direct supervision of the instructor. The way you are stating it gives no way for the DM candidate to practice those pool skills with real students. How can you learn without real time practice??? Can you imagine the student that says; "Sure, I just read me this here book on Divemasterin' and I don't need to practice nuthin'". Role playing can only go so far as well. Taking your interpretation to it's logical conclusion, then we would only have Divemasters who have never dealt with real time situations or with real students. I don't think that this is the purpose or intent of the PADI regulations.

Are the PADI references vague??? Purposely so I think. Would this be considered a "grey area"... indubitably. Who's insurance would cover any "contingencies"??? The instructor in charge. He has to teach both the OW students and the DM candidate. The DMs or DM candidates could never ever sign a pic card. The responsibility for the class ultimately resides with the instructor. So then would the liability. A DM's insurance would only come into play as it pertained to him interfacing with certified divers. A DM in training has no such authority, and thus needs no insurance.