Well if you remember from your DM book there is 2 options for completing the DMC program.. 1 being the internship and 2 being practical excercises, Ive done both and find both of value. Does a DMC need to demonstrate skills to a new student to be of value? no. There are alot more roles they can play in the water then that.. for example being a extra set of eyes for the instructor, etc. I dont agree with you that doing the practical exercises are have no value because they are not with real students. If the training is done properly it works. In fact your more likely to get more diversified situtions because with real students you have to wait for something to happen and doing the practical exercises you can force the dmc to deal with a more wide varity of problems that can occur that may not happen very often with real students.
Where do you draw the line?
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The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
RStone and all,
Page 80 of the DM Handbook... Under "Candidate-Instructor Relationship"
"As your mentor, your instructor will give you opportunities for hands-on teaching experience (under supervision) with student divers in training. Your instructor will help you to learn about decision making and judgement by sharing the experience and thinking that go into the decisions during the instructor/supervision process. You will handle logistics and other duties that fall under your instructor's ultimate responsibility, not just because doing so aids the instructor, but because doing so gives you experience and understanding about these facets of teaching that will one day be your responsibility as an instructor. "
As I recall, I HAD to assist in a few (5???) classes both in the pool and out for my DM. It was never a problem for me because I love to help people. The whole thrust of the paragraphs before and after this one develop the Candidate-Instructor Relationship as one of Mentor/Protoge! I take back what I said about PADI being somewhat vague on this subject... I just had to find where they wrote it!!!
BTW, where I found Rescue diver fun and challenging, I think I found the "work" for my DM far more rewarding. I was really made to understand diving physiology and science, as well as to help relate it to new students. I know there are MANY instructors who are afraid of "losing control" and will not let a DM (or candidate) assist them at all. If I can not learn while helping out an instructor, then I might as well go dive elswhere just for fun. I will not help them again, because, I do not feel challenged as an underwater babysitter! Your payment for my help is to teach me something along the way!!! Yes, the instructor has to do the initial training/demonstration, but then they should use their resourses, and let those DMs who are eager and willing to help do so. Critique them and help them improve (it has to be under YOUR supervision and that means you gotta watch 'em) but let them interact with the students. You won't be so worn out after a class if you don't carry the whole thing on your back!!!
Stepping down off of soap box, looking for something else to rant about! :tease:
Page 80 of the DM Handbook... Under "Candidate-Instructor Relationship"
"As your mentor, your instructor will give you opportunities for hands-on teaching experience (under supervision) with student divers in training. Your instructor will help you to learn about decision making and judgement by sharing the experience and thinking that go into the decisions during the instructor/supervision process. You will handle logistics and other duties that fall under your instructor's ultimate responsibility, not just because doing so aids the instructor, but because doing so gives you experience and understanding about these facets of teaching that will one day be your responsibility as an instructor. "
As I recall, I HAD to assist in a few (5???) classes both in the pool and out for my DM. It was never a problem for me because I love to help people. The whole thrust of the paragraphs before and after this one develop the Candidate-Instructor Relationship as one of Mentor/Protoge! I take back what I said about PADI being somewhat vague on this subject... I just had to find where they wrote it!!!
BTW, where I found Rescue diver fun and challenging, I think I found the "work" for my DM far more rewarding. I was really made to understand diving physiology and science, as well as to help relate it to new students. I know there are MANY instructors who are afraid of "losing control" and will not let a DM (or candidate) assist them at all. If I can not learn while helping out an instructor, then I might as well go dive elswhere just for fun. I will not help them again, because, I do not feel challenged as an underwater babysitter! Your payment for my help is to teach me something along the way!!! Yes, the instructor has to do the initial training/demonstration, but then they should use their resourses, and let those DMs who are eager and willing to help do so. Critique them and help them improve (it has to be under YOUR supervision and that means you gotta watch 'em) but let them interact with the students. You won't be so worn out after a class if you don't carry the whole thing on your back!!!
Stepping down off of soap box, looking for something else to rant about! :tease:
NetDoc,
Currently I'm rated as a Rescue Diver, but I'm working toward DM. Interning, my Instructor calls it. The majority of the dive shops in this area have DM Interns. I work with students, under the direct supervision of my instructor, in and out of the pool. Doc, you're right, he appreciates the help of a Rescue Diver in the pool and open water. Before anyone gets excited, I don't lead OW dives with students. I'm there to help keep a eye on them, assist the Instructor, and learn how to interact with students. I'm finding the DM course both challenging and rewarding, just wish I had done it sooner.:tree:Bob
Currently I'm rated as a Rescue Diver, but I'm working toward DM. Interning, my Instructor calls it. The majority of the dive shops in this area have DM Interns. I work with students, under the direct supervision of my instructor, in and out of the pool. Doc, you're right, he appreciates the help of a Rescue Diver in the pool and open water. Before anyone gets excited, I don't lead OW dives with students. I'm there to help keep a eye on them, assist the Instructor, and learn how to interact with students. I'm finding the DM course both challenging and rewarding, just wish I had done it sooner.:tree:Bob
Speaking from the low end of the Totem pole I can say this. Having a DM or two along in the pool and in open water can be very helpfull.
In my class for OW there were 3 of us, me and two girls. One of the girls was quick to catch on to things as was I, the other took a lot of handholding which annoyed us cause it made class time 3.5 hours instead of 2.5.
Anyways when it was time for the OW dives we had along a DM that was in training to become an instructor. She just sort of tagged along with us. But she was really there to keep an eye on this girl. She kept falling behind or she'd see a fish and just sort of stop and gaze at it. She was buddied up with me at times and with the other girl, but neither of us was comfortable with her skills as a dive buddy so the DM filled in and had to keep he on track.
When she did the navigating. She took a heading looked at the compass and headed off. Never looked to see if everyone was with her or anything or checked the compas. Shes a very fast swimmer and soon kinda pulled away, so the DM went and fetched her back.
The instructor passed her, but I feel that she needed much more instruction before being "qualified"
She would have failed her final test if the instructor had not helped her out on probably half the questions.
In my class for OW there were 3 of us, me and two girls. One of the girls was quick to catch on to things as was I, the other took a lot of handholding which annoyed us cause it made class time 3.5 hours instead of 2.5.
Anyways when it was time for the OW dives we had along a DM that was in training to become an instructor. She just sort of tagged along with us. But she was really there to keep an eye on this girl. She kept falling behind or she'd see a fish and just sort of stop and gaze at it. She was buddied up with me at times and with the other girl, but neither of us was comfortable with her skills as a dive buddy so the DM filled in and had to keep he on track.
When she did the navigating. She took a heading looked at the compass and headed off. Never looked to see if everyone was with her or anything or checked the compas. Shes a very fast swimmer and soon kinda pulled away, so the DM went and fetched her back.
The instructor passed her, but I feel that she needed much more instruction before being "qualified"
She would have failed her final test if the instructor had not helped her out on probably half the questions.
NetDoc dont get me wrong i think DM Candidates can and do play and important role and yes this develops a Mentor / Protoge relationship, i think you kind of missed my point though, and that is that PADI does not allow dmcs to demonstrate skills to students.. before or after.. a student does them. There is alot more as you know that goes into running a class then just demonstrating skills to a student, such as counseling students who have problems.. suggesting new ideas from your experience to make it go easier for them, help them with there gear, watching for problems underwater and on the surface, and responding to them if the instructor is distracted by another student, etc.. your instructor should be teaching you how to demonstrate skills in a demonstration quality manner as a dmc so that when you do become a DM and have insurance, that you can demonstrate skills in a demonstration quality manner. And you are right that you should be learning something. When i have a DMC in the water with me i do make them a active part of the group as well as being involved in the decision process on logistics as well as involve them as much as possible in the pool and o/w.. but you have to remember that demonstrating a skill is teaching in a sense which is probably why PADI requires you to be insured. Its also important that you teach it right the first time as well.
From my instructor manual it says:
In an instructional setting, your primary role is, under the instructor's direction, is handling logistics and assisting with student diver supervision. The instructors primary role is to focus on teaching and individual student diver learning.
From my instructor manual it says:
In an instructional setting, your primary role is, under the instructor's direction, is handling logistics and assisting with student diver supervision. The instructors primary role is to focus on teaching and individual student diver learning.
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
Hey RStone,
Well I can't force you to interpret the manual as I see it, and the converse is also obviously true. On page 79 of the same manual I quoted from earlier it states that two of the primary functions of a Divemaster are:
*conducting the tour for experience portion of dives.
*helping student divers with learning difficulties on an individual basis.
There are 5 others, but these bear out my contention that DMs are more than just extra eyes in the pool. You don't have to treat them that way, after all you are the instructor and you are in charge. It's just how PADI would want you to treat them. If my other contention is also true that DMs in training are to be doing the same thing, but only under the supervision of the instructor. Then the first poster was not in error IF he was considered a DM candidate.
:tease:
Well I can't force you to interpret the manual as I see it, and the converse is also obviously true. On page 79 of the same manual I quoted from earlier it states that two of the primary functions of a Divemaster are:
*conducting the tour for experience portion of dives.
*helping student divers with learning difficulties on an individual basis.
There are 5 others, but these bear out my contention that DMs are more than just extra eyes in the pool. You don't have to treat them that way, after all you are the instructor and you are in charge. It's just how PADI would want you to treat them. If my other contention is also true that DMs in training are to be doing the same thing, but only under the supervision of the instructor. Then the first poster was not in error IF he was considered a DM candidate.
:tease:
i also read those parts as well.. the problem with that book is they jump back and forth which makes it confusing because at times they are talking about your role as a divemaster... which implies your certified already, and what roles your will be able to take on once you are a DM. However thats what ive always been taught and told by course directors.. but ill call PADI to verify it just to be sure.
Maybe this will help clarify things a bit:
INTERNSHIP OBJECTIVES
During the internship, candidates must:
1. Organize the predive setup of equipment by Open Water Diver students for confined water and open water training.
2. Coordinate student diver flow during confined water and open water training dives.
3. Supervise Open Water Diver student divers not receiving the immediate attention of the instructor during confined and open water training.
4. Account for buddy teams entering and leaving the water by checking them in and out of the water.
5. Assist an Open Water Diver student overcome a learning difficulty in confined water, or a continuing education student diver in open water.
6. Respond to, or prevent, diver problems as they occur in eeach section of the internship.
7. Demonstrate four or more skills for student divers in confined water.
8. Assist in the preparation of an open water training site.
9. Conduct an environmental assessment at an open water training site and report to the instructor appropriate recommendations about the suitability of the site for training entry-level and continuing education student divers.
10. Lead student divers on an underwater tour (ratio 2:1) for pleasure. (A PADI Instructor must directly supervise this tour, though the candi-date conducts the tour as if the instructor were indirectly supervising.)
11. Conduct environmental and diver assessments for supervising divers not in training and include recommendations based on the assessment in a predive briefing, and take other appropriate steps based on the assessments.
12. Conduct an appropriate predive briefing for a dive site.
13. Escort continuing education student divers on an indirectly-supervised training dives and report observed performancesto the instructor and assist with problems, if any.
Note: PADI Divemaster candidates may not be used to meet ratio requirements, and they may not indirectly supervise uncertified divers.
------------------------------------------------------------
PADI Instructor Manual, Divemaster Course, 5-8 Five:
Practical Application: Internship.
------------------------------------------------------------
~SubMariner~
INTERNSHIP OBJECTIVES
During the internship, candidates must:
1. Organize the predive setup of equipment by Open Water Diver students for confined water and open water training.
2. Coordinate student diver flow during confined water and open water training dives.
3. Supervise Open Water Diver student divers not receiving the immediate attention of the instructor during confined and open water training.
4. Account for buddy teams entering and leaving the water by checking them in and out of the water.
5. Assist an Open Water Diver student overcome a learning difficulty in confined water, or a continuing education student diver in open water.
6. Respond to, or prevent, diver problems as they occur in eeach section of the internship.
7. Demonstrate four or more skills for student divers in confined water.
8. Assist in the preparation of an open water training site.
9. Conduct an environmental assessment at an open water training site and report to the instructor appropriate recommendations about the suitability of the site for training entry-level and continuing education student divers.
10. Lead student divers on an underwater tour (ratio 2:1) for pleasure. (A PADI Instructor must directly supervise this tour, though the candi-date conducts the tour as if the instructor were indirectly supervising.)
11. Conduct environmental and diver assessments for supervising divers not in training and include recommendations based on the assessment in a predive briefing, and take other appropriate steps based on the assessments.
12. Conduct an appropriate predive briefing for a dive site.
13. Escort continuing education student divers on an indirectly-supervised training dives and report observed performancesto the instructor and assist with problems, if any.
Note: PADI Divemaster candidates may not be used to meet ratio requirements, and they may not indirectly supervise uncertified divers.
------------------------------------------------------------
PADI Instructor Manual, Divemaster Course, 5-8 Five:
Practical Application: Internship.
------------------------------------------------------------
~SubMariner~
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
I bow to the master...
(and thanks for proving me right!!!)
:tease:
I never did hear what part of the country you are from, Submariner...
(and thanks for proving me right!!!)
:tease:
I never did hear what part of the country you are from, Submariner...
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