When thirds are not enough....

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exactly. i saw red.

and i dive thirds in peacock. getting out somewhere like challenge wouldn't be fun, but is possible. times we've done something 'bigger' than an up & back, we take a stage or buddy bottle. which, as i recall, we've gotten sh!t for, so some of you make up your minds - is thirds reckless, or is having more gas stupid?

Imo, diving a stage (as a proper stage, with reserves in your backgas) is better than a "buddy bottle", which is unsharable (for all practical purposes) and can be rendered somewhat useless by a simple failure.

I'll dive 1/3s in shallow no flow caves that I a) know relatively well and b) have a solid team with me. If we're going to be pokin around in tight areas, I'll back it off some, sure.

For more complex dives, I start to think less in terms of "thirds" or "quarters" and more in terms of "how much time do I have". Time becomes a real issue, especially in the deeper stuff. 10mins to sort out some snafu in 80ft uses a lot less gas (deco and bottom) than 10mins to sort out the same snafu in a 200' cave. Clearly, these simple rules of thumb break down, and different logic needs to be applied.
 
Imo, diving a stage (as a proper stage, with reserves in your backgas) is better than a "buddy bottle", which is unsharable (for all practical purposes) and can be rendered somewhat useless by a simple failure.

I'll dive 1/3s in shallow no flow caves that I a) know relatively well and b) have a solid team with me. If we're going to be pokin around in tight areas, I'll back it off some, sure.

For more complex dives, I start to think less in terms of "thirds" or "quarters" and more in terms of "how much time do I have". Time becomes a real issue, especially in the deeper stuff. 10mins to sort out some snafu in 80ft uses a lot less gas (deco and bottom) than 10mins to sort out the same snafu in a 200' cave. Clearly, these simple rules of thumb break down, and different logic needs to be applied.
Agreed. Once you start getting far in a cave, you've also got to consider how much stress and fatigue is caused by carrying extra unneeded gas (and I use that term meaning it's not needed if things go as planned), and what the chances are that the extra task loading causes a problem that wouldn't exist without it. You and I discussed this yesterday via phone, and I don't think we see eye to eye on where the line is, but it's safe to see that we both agree there's a happy medium.

Another thing I think people often forget, is how much deco gas do you have? I see an awful lot of people going to the far reaches of Ginnie (ie Heinkle Swim) with just an AL40, but backgas well within 1/3rds. There's also the risk of thinking that you're going to swim out of JB from EOL when the flow is down and deco out on a single AL40 with no redundancy. Also have heard of several cave divers skimping on deep deco bottles and not reserving enough backgas to get them to o2 if they had a true failure or delay at max penetration. That's something that's poorly taught at the full cave and even DPV specialty level. When we're doing long penetrations @ Manatee Springs, we'll carry an extra AL40 just so there's some redundant deco gas. You don't want to be buddy breathing a bottle for 30+ minutes.

The longer this discussion goes on, the more obvious it becomes-- these rules just don't hold up well outside of the common tourist caves. HOWEVER, history proves that they get most divers out of the cave safely until they gain experience and tackle dives where experience is needed to plan them. However, having said that, I think with the rise of side mount diving with new full cave divers, that we're over due for a few deaths in tight silty passages where these rules aren't conservative enough.
 
Richard, if it put's your mind at ease, I've dove 1/3rds in a no flow cave with one of your instructors other students. He didn't fly over here to yank his card :wink:

(I've also done dives where we used 50cu ft going in, and left about 270 in reserve with that same diver, under different conditions)

I have marked the mid-point of the main Peacock tunnel too (right of the peanut line entering at p1, it was years ago and I forget the name). My buddy looked at me like I was on Mars, but I wasn't worried about being lost I had enough gas to swim back and forth in there all day. I was looking for agreement on "if we have a problem we are exiting back not ahead."

I'm pretty much not doing the same tourist cave dive over and over again cause we don't have any, so I'll leave the pontificating to those who do.
 
You wouldn't dive 1/3rds on swim dive with a team of two when the flow is up at LR/Devils/JB? :idk:

I don't depend on flow to get me out. Besides, the types of dives I do at JB always take me off the mainline and there's hardly any flow there, even when the flow is up. That being said, if I were just doing a main line dive, I still wouldn't. I would cut it back by 100 psi. Not much, but enough to keep me happy.


JahJahwarrior:
(on a serious note, how many people actually dive something more conservative than thirds at Peacock? I mean actually dive it, not just post that you dive it. And I mean full cave divers, not intro divers, even the intro divers that dive thirds because they think they are Big Cool People that are above the guidelines.)

I do.


Peter Guy:
I'm a newbie at this so please be kind:

If the non-breather diver has a catastrophic failure, then he goes on the 40 -- correct? Now that may not be enough gas but ONLY the buddy goes on the 40 since the 'breather diver has no issue.

OTOH, if the 'breather diver has an issue, he goes on the 40 and the OC guy still has full gas.

OTHER THAN 40 may not be enough, I don't see the issue. What am I missing?

An OC diver and a rebreather diver are essentially diving solo when it comes to emergency gas. They must both carry their own bailout and have enough of it to get out of the cave safely. If the RB guy has an issue and goes to bailout, now the OC guy no longer has anyone to air share with.


SuPrBuGmAn:
I've never dived 1/3rds at Peacock, we always had plenty enough gas to make our plans happen, and simply exitted after never getting anywhere near a turn pressure of any sorts.

Okay, I think he was asking about people that have actually been diving at Peacock before... :wink:
 
If the RB guy has an issue and goes to bailout, now the OC guy no longer has anyone to air share with.

It's early with no coffee, so maybe I'm just not following your logic.

How is a RB guy going to bailout any different than an OC guy having a problem in regards to not having anyone to share air with? If two OC divers are a team and one has a problem forcing them to share with the second, then the second doesn't have anyone to share air with either. In either case, you'd have to plan for two simultaneous failures by either adding a 3rd person or more bottles.
 
True, I guess I haven't had enough coffee either! :wink: Let me continue the thought.

If the OC diver has an issue, he has to go to his own bailout because he can't take the RB diver's bailout.

I'm not sure if that makes any more sense or not. Still haven't had that 2nd cup yet! I know what I'm trying to say, though!
 
The only time I'll dive thirds is when I'm diving in a cave. For internet diving, I religiously stick to 1/10ths. I write a post, then delete 9/10ths of it. Posting more than one tenth of what I write runs me into the risk of too much internet penetration also known as caring way too much about the internet and not enough about real life.

:wink:

(on a serious note, how many people actually dive something more conservative than thirds at Peacock? I mean actually dive it, not just post that you dive it. And I mean full cave divers, not intro divers, even the intro divers that dive thirds because they think they are Big Cool People that are above the guidelines.)

Most gas rules state, "Always reserve at least 2/3 of your gas supply for exit.

I have to admit, I dive thirds - unless the conditions suggest sixths. It keeps everything simple. Every cave diver understands (or should) calculating thirds with same and dissimilar tanks. Thirds becomes the line in the sand that you absolutely cannot cross. No exceptions. No excuses. Thumbs.

If decompression is a factor, then without deco gas it's a great idea to take away rock bottom gas and calculate thirds based upon usable gas. If you drop deco gas, then you may just calculate thirds for penetration. A diver can decide how much caution he or she wants to build into any dive.

Once we've established that line in the sand, we are now free to draw upon our experiences, our emotions, the formation of the cave, the conditions, how the dive is proceeding, etc., to decide when to turn the dive. I've turned dives before thirds for all manner of reasons: time, depth, deco, multiple directional changes, silt, gut instinct, name it.

There are so many factors that can go into turning the dive. When I first started cave diving, I thought 3 jumps was a lot. After gaining lots of solo diving experience making 50 directional changes or more in a single dive in low flow, Florida caves are more easily pictured in my mental map. So, I'm more comfortable exiting in the dark. When diving with my girlfriend who easily does the Bone Room circuit to the Mapleleaf in AL80's and is a very cautious cave diver, I'm happy doing thirds with her. She has good instincts and know when to speed up or slow down.

Most divers tend to use more gas at the beginning of the dive even in low flow as they settle into the dive and find a rhythm. As divers get a little cooler during the dive, the swim pace is often picked up a bit during exit. Divers also tend to exit faster with the idea of, "Hey if we speed this up we won't have to hang as long." At this point, many divers are still breathing better despite increased effort due to the fact that their bodies have moved into an "aquasize" mode. However, if the exposure is prolonged enough to cause the diver to use more gas due to being cold, then we're back to using more gas in a shorter period of time.

If you want to go into a dive feeling a bit better, try facial submersion with no mask as you check your regulators in the spring run or basin. Take deep inhalations and very long slow exhalations and see how you feel going into something like the Ear or Eye at Ginnie.

Have there been dives when I have planned to turn a couple hundred psi before thirds? Absolutely! But, most of the time I'm comfortable with thirds. I'll admit it, Jah Jah. :wink:
 
If the OC diver has an issue, he has to go to his own bailout because he can't take the RB diver's bailout.

I think I follow what you're trying to say now. You're advocating that the RB diver needs to retain their own bailout at all times so with an OC/CCR team the OC diver needs to have their own bailout/buddy bottle.
 
Okay, I think he was asking about people that have actually been diving at Peacock before... :wink:

I've dived Peacock before :) I certainly don't do it often, but its not at all an unfamiliar place.
 
As an Cave 1/Intro to Cave Diver, I have really found this discussion to be useful. I have dove a bit with JahJah and like his style and attitude in the water. I really can't remember actually hitting thirds with him... ever.
 
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