What's wrong with long hose

[MXGratefulDiver]

I DM for a NAUI shop ... and I have two reg sets. The one I use in the pool is a "standard" configuration. It's used to demonstrate the basic reg recovery skills and to help students practice standard OOA drills.

During the Open Water dives I wear my backplate with 7' hose. The instructor actually likes it, because it gives her the chance to introduce students to yet another (increasingly) popular configuration that they may come across after they get certified. During the standard OW drills, the students have already been introduced to the skills and I don't need to demonstrate anything ... just watch them to make sure they don't get into trouble while performing them for the instructor. During surface intervals, I'll go through a "dry land" demonstration of how OOA's are done with a hogarthian rig, and will do a "dry land" exchange with the students. On dive 4 or 5 ... after all standard drills are completed, I'll usually do a real OOA drill using the long hose with the students assigned to me.

It's a win-win. The students go through their standard drills plus they get exposure to a different configuration in a supervised fashion.

FWIW - my shop isn't DIR ... but most of the staff wear backplates and long hose configurations when we're fun diving. We feel it's important for students to be familiar with both OOA methods. Particularly since we encourage students to come back and go on fun dives with the staff after they've been certified.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[IndigoBlue]

I see your point. However, while I'm not advocating smaller BCs shouldn't the DMs and instructors be properly weighted and make sure [their] students are [not] grossly over-weighted?

DIVERS should be perfectly weighted. Perfect weighting normally means neutral buoyancy with an empty B/C at the end of a dive. That is true for instructors and D/Ms and students alike.

When you are diving, the size of your wing depends mostly on personal preference and on the swing in negative buoyancy during your dive. The swing occurs from suit compression, suit failure, gear and tackle being carried, tank air consumption, etc.

When you are instructing or D/M-ing you need to be able to handle emergencies and problems as well, and that adds additional factors that you must take into account, which affects your wing size.

I have a problem with C/Ds who want instructors to wear the same gear as the students are wearing. Particularly since the students are normally wearing pretty crappy rental gear. [crappy < John Crapper, inventor of the flush toilot].

 

[ScubaJewel]

Personally I like a man with a long hose. I use a long hose every chance I get... But seriously I am not allowed to dive my long hose when I divemaster either. It doesent bother me at all. I understand the reasons and I actually agree with them

Julie

 

[cornfed]

I understand the reasons and I actually agree with them

Which are? And you agree with them because...?

 

[MikeFerrara]

1) One of the training requirements is to train students on reg recovery and clearing. We teach two reg recoveries: a) the arm-swing method, were you bring your right hand down along your right side, then reach back with it, and around, and try to hook your reg that way; b) the behind-the-shoulder method, where you reach back to your tank valve with your right hand, find your hoses where they connect to the tank, move your hand along the hose for your primary reg, and pull it back to you that way. its a standard, not optional, its required.

2) What lift capacity to employ is a hugely personal choice. I worry about D/Ms getting into buoyancy trouble with students.

Thanks for the reply. I am familiar with those two methods and they are commonly taught. I'm not familiar with the standards for every agency but PADI for instance doesn't specify any specific method in bold print in the standards. I don't have any trouble teaching reg recovery wearing a long hose.

Reaching over your shoulder for the hose always works of course and the arm sweep works if you're vertical (which I teach students not to be unless at the surface) but one of the wonderful things about using a long hose is that if you let go of it you'll find it right at your right shoulder. Very easy to find and get back.

Also I don't know about you but if I'm diving and suddenly my reg is gone, I'm going to pop my backup in my mouth which is right under my chin. Then...I have all the time in the world to puts around looking for the reg that mysteriously went bye-bye.

I just don't see any sense in using a configuration that makes no sense so I can teach some one else to use a configuration that makes no sense.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Color does not mean a thing. Just a pain in the a** when when your buddy is playing hide and seek and happens to be wearing all black. YES you can see yellow (it is afterall the third color to fade) in a lot of situations and if that helps somone locate the octo then that is cool. I agree that should not be the primary method but hey if it helps then cool. BTW what color is your long hose?

A funny thing that Ive noticed is that there are many colors of dive equipment and that along with OOA's and other problems we sometimes see siltouts or they happen in no light conditions. Don't rely on sight. If you have your buddy you know where his head is and you knoe where his mouth is. If his alternate is where it belongs he can get it in his mouth almost without effort.

So what you are saying is that you prefer to donate "the one you know is working" and according to this logic keep and use the one that you are not sure about? I have to say this justification stinks.

Most absolutely! I have just had a fresh breath and can make it a few seconds without while my buddy needs air now. My intention is to see to it that we both have the gas we need. My backup is right under my chin and if need be I can even get it into my mouth without using my hands (although I generally do because it's easier)

BTW, if you hand him a reg that doesn't work or he can't find your alternate (or just doesn't want to look for it) he WILL take the one out of your mouth whether you like it or not.


If you don't know how to use any peice of equipment you can make this very same arguement. There is a reason you should attach the octo and as expected you hit the nail on the head.

I agreee with what you are saying and I am NOT against the idea of a long hose it is just that a lot of people seem to PUSH their way of doing it on the masses. I have to say I dissagree just as much about somone saying that a long hose is bad. I guess that goes to the concept of do it right thus implying that EVERYONE else is doing it wrong is what bothers me the most here.

For me it has nothing to do with DIR and never use the term to describe my own diving. However I have seen OOA's. The don't happen as expected or when expected. They happen fast and the OOA diver will need and want gas now. "Someplace in that stupid triange" is not precise enough. I teach this method to my students because it works in real OOA situations while the commonly taught methode works best while kneeling on the pool bottom.

As for the Dive Master, hey if you are working for a shop you have to do as the shop wants or move on, simple as that. If the owner of the shop is against the idea of a long hose that is his or her right to tell his or her employees not to use them.

Yes it's his right but no one with any sense will listen. If he likes the configuration so much then let him dive it alone because it doesn't seem to work well when it's for real.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I worked at a NAUI facility in the florida keys, that absolutely insisted on a standard length primary and octo clipped to the BCD. Since I normally dive with an AIR 2 for streamlining (one less hose), I was forced to attach an octo, and in essence have TWO backup regulators. People loved THAT.

The facility's argument is an old one... instructors shouldn't wear gear that's configured differently from students. I kept waiting for a student to show up with a hogarthian setup...

That's what my students show up in. If not in the beginning they usually switch to it once they see how it works.

Why shouldn't the instructor wear different stuff? I'm not going to dress up all silly because my students do. LOL I'm supposed to be the one doing the teaching.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I DM for a NAUI shop ... and I have two reg sets. The one I use in the pool is a "standard" configuration. It's used to demonstrate the basic reg recovery skills and to help students practice standard OOA drills.

During the Open Water dives I wear my backplate with 7' hose. The instructor actually likes it, because it gives her the chance to introduce students to yet another (increasingly) popular configuration that they may come across after they get certified. During the standard OW drills, the students have already been introduced to the skills and I don't need to demonstrate anything ... just watch them to make sure they don't get into trouble while performing them for the instructor. During surface intervals, I'll go through a "dry land" demonstration of how OOA's are done with a hogarthian rig, and will do a "dry land" exchange with the students. On dive 4 or 5 ... after all standard drills are completed, I'll usually do a real OOA drill using the long hose with the students assigned to me.

It's a win-win. The students go through their standard drills plus they get exposure to a different configuration in a supervised fashion.

FWIW - my shop isn't DIR ... but most of the staff wear backplates and long hose configurations when we're fun diving. We feel it's important for students to be familiar with both OOA methods. Particularly since we encourage students to come back and go on fun dives with the staff after they've been certified.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Good points. I spend a good deal of time and effort explaining and demonstrating different methods of sharing air and why we use the methods we do.

I realize that, for the time being, most of the divers they'll see will have air 2's or octos pinned to their chest (until they come loose and drag), but I'll never suggest to any student of mine that they dive that way.

 

[IndigoBlue]

I just don't see any sense in using a configuration that makes no sense so I can teach some one else to use a configuration that makes no sense.

Good question. Now you are touching on the essence of the real problem.

Dive stores stock cheap rental gear, which is used by the basic O/W students. The B/Cs are cheap jackets and the regs have cheap octos on them.

In a perfect diving world, there would be no cheap jacket B/Cs and there would be no cheap octos.

In a perfect diving world, we would all be diving with two full service 2nd stages, and would be breathing off our longest hose and donating our primary, and our backup would be on a necklace around our neck. Then the only thing we would be debating is how long our long hose should be. And our short hose would be short enough to place our secondary in the middle of our chest.

General scuba is not there yet, however. And stores are still stocked with cheap rental gear, as we now speak.

In the meantime, we need to teach the students how to wear and use the cheap rental gear. Some C/Ds also insist that we wear the same cheap gear as well. Huge can of worms, in the real diving world.

 

[MikeFerrara]

In the meantime, we need to teach the students how to wear and use the cheap rental gear. Some C/Ds also insist that we wear the same cheap gear as well. Huge can of worms, in the real diving world.

No. I need to teach my students to avoid that silliness. If a shop wants to have that equipment then let them dive it. I try to teach my students why we don't dive in that cheap gear.

Besides the issue isn't price of the equipment. The issue is the volume that a shop must sell to keep a scubapro or aqalung dealership in the first place. You won't meet the numbers by refusing to use 80% of what they make. Of course there are those who just do it the way they were taught with no further thought.