What's wrong with long hose

[IndigoBlue]

What agency and what do they require?

I like to teach in a well configured and balanced configuration. In the rare instance that I wear a wet suit and a single tank, I use a 27 pound wing and have never needed more. Why would I need 45 pounds? of lift?

1) One of the training requirements is to train students on reg recovery and clearing. We teach two reg recoveries: a) the arm-swing method, were you bring your right hand down along your right side, then reach back with it, and around, and try to hook your reg that way; b) the behind-the-shoulder method, where you reach back to your tank valve with your right hand, find your hoses where they connect to the tank, move your hand along the hose for your primary reg, and pull it back to you that way. its a standard, not optional, its required.

2) What lift capacity to employ is a hugely personal choice. I worry about D/Ms getting into buoyancy trouble with students.

 

[Mo2vation]

The DIR proponents say dive a long hose in caves, wrecks or open water 30 foot reefs. Consistency, same way all the time. It works for them. They also say don't dive with strokes ie. people that don't dive their system, makes sense, everyone is on the same page.

Actually, its don't dive with unsafe divers. Its not about diving "our system" (you guys really think we have a secret handshake and stuff... amazing.) I have one DIR buddy, and dozens of non-DIR buddies I regularly dive with.

If my DIR buddy practiced unsafe diving, I'd kick him to the curb in a minute. Likewise with any buddy of mine - DIR or not.

K

 

[cornfed]

2) What lift capacity to employ is a hugely personal choice. I worry about D/Ms getting into buoyancy trouble with students.

Trouble such as?

 

[IndigoBlue]

Trouble such as?

Trouble, such as described in the post here on Scubaboard about the recent Southern California diver who perished in the water, while his buddy was unable to hold onto him, unable to inflate his B/C because the hose became disconnected, unable to ditch his weights for him, even though he apparently tried. That kind of trouble. Ended up in a search and recovery by the sheriff's dept. An instructor's worst nightmare scenario.

Weight belts get caught on gear sometimes. That is also how Mia Tegner apparently died in Southern California as well. The recovery team found her weight belt had apparently been attempted to be ditched, but was caught on her gear. It is not a perfect world. Weight belts do not always perform as expected. People die that way. Small capacity B/Cs and/or wings give you little or no margin for error of any kind, including gear error, when you are trying to supervise or assist someone else.

If I were involved as an I/T in an ITC and a student instructor showed up with a low capacity B/C or wing, I would argue vociferously with the C/D about it. In the case of an ITC, it is the C/D's call, not mine, however.

 

[perpet1]

Color goes away at depth remember?
We don't rely on color in an emergency.

Color does not mean a thing. Just a pain in the a** when when your buddy is playing hide and seek and happens to be wearing all black. YES you can see yellow (it is afterall the third color to fade) in a lot of situations and if that helps somone locate the octo then that is cool. I agree that should not be the primary method but hey if it helps then cool. BTW what color is your long hose?

The one reg you have that you know is working is the one you're using and that's the one needed by a diver who's OOA.

With practice you'll be able to do without a breath for the half second it takes to get your mouth around the reg that's right under your chin where it belongs.

So what you are saying is that you prefer to donate "the one you know is working" and according to this logic keep and use the one that you are not sure about? I have to say this justification stinks.

The reg that you carry in a scum ball has likely fallen out and/or been dragged and is full of sand or mud anyway, I'd let you use that one.

If you don't know how to use any peice of equipment you can make this very same arguement. There is a reason you should attach the octo and as expected you hit the nail on the head.

We train them to know the benefits of different air sharing methods. Few who try a long hose and a bungied backup are ever willing to dive anything else again. To train divers to use something knowing it doesn't work as well just because many others use it makes no sense at all.

I agreee with what you are saying and I am NOT against the idea of a long hose it is just that a lot of people seem to PUSH their way of doing it on the masses. I have to say I dissagree just as much about somone saying that a long hose is bad. I guess that goes to the concept of do it right thus implying that EVERYONE else is doing it wrong is what bothers me the most here.

As for the Dive Master, hey if you are working for a shop you have to do as the shop wants or move on, simple as that. If the owner of the shop is against the idea of a long hose that is his or her right to tell his or her employees not to use them.

Absolutely we train people to pass off or take the primary.

 

[IndigoBlue]

Find a shop that dives the way you do to take DM with.

James

Absolutely right about that.

 

[IndigoBlue]

The justifications for "no long hose" I've heard are: (1) the students and tourists generally won't be using long hoses on primaries and the DM should be using equipment "familiar" to students and the tourists; (2) the backup regulator ("octopus") goes on a long hose, not a primary regulator; (3) a long hose is a "caving thing" that recreational divers don't need to worry about; and (4) PADI (I'm guessing it's a PADI shop telling you this) teaches donating a backup instead of a primary, so donating a long hose primary interferes with their training...

5) there are no 7 ft hoses on the rental gear used by virtually all students

6) many divers prefer an Air2 configuration which although it is like a cave configuration, it is not exactly like it in that it does not employ a 7 ft hose

7) it is difficult for students to relate to D/Ms and instructors who are demonstrating in vastly different gear. Its not impossible, just confusing to them, and difficult for them.

 

[archman]

I worked at a NAUI facility in the florida keys, that absolutely insisted on a standard length primary and octo clipped to the BCD. Since I normally dive with an AIR 2 for streamlining (one less hose), I was forced to attach an octo, and in essence have TWO backup regulators. People loved THAT.

The facility's argument is an old one... instructors shouldn't wear gear that's configured differently from students. I kept waiting for a student to show up with a hogarthian setup...

 

[AzAtty]

So what you are saying is that you prefer to donate "the one you know is working" and according to this logic keep and use the one that you are not sure about? I have to say this justification stinks.

Reverse the perception. The idea is to reduce the distressed diver's anxiety and have a plan for dealing with a highly probable instinctive reaction by the OOG diver--going for your primary. May as well be prepared for it.

You know your backup is working because you did a thorough check of your equipment before going down. But suppose it isn't working. You donate a gimpy backup to an OOG diver who is already stressed. He tries to breathe, but gets no gas. Now he's really upset, and he's coming for your primary or he's bolting for the surface. Sounds like a bad situation just got worse.

When I certified, I was taught that in all likelihood, I'd be the one breathing from the backup because the OOG diver would be ganking my primary (that was PADI dispensing that bit of information in the 1980's, not NSS-CDS or GUE or IANTD or any other "tech" agency). So we learned to donate from the mouth and from the alternate.

As for the spearfishing and lobstering, I've concluded that it's the exception to every rule. There should be an entirely separate configuration and set of protocols for that activity.

 

[cornfed]

Weight belts get caught on gear sometimes. That is also how Mia Tegner apparently died in Southern California as well. The recovery team found her weight belt had apparently been attempted to be ditched, but was caught on her gear. It is not a perfect world. Weight belts do not always perform as expected. People die that way. Small capacity B/Cs and/or wings give you little or no margin for error of any kind, including gear error, when you are trying to supervise or assist someone else.

I see your point. However, while I'm not advocating smaller BCs shouldn't the DMs and instructors be properly weighted and make sure their students are not grossly over weighted?