What's wrong with long hose

[AzAtty]

Charlie:

That was one justification I've been given by a PADI instructor, not saying it's correct standards or not. I think the person was more interested in making a case for no long hose than whether PADI trains alternate configurations. But you are right, the BC inflator alternates are acceptable and there is discussion about their use.

Dennis:

I want the diver going after the one in my mouth, but that's another debate.

I'll agree that there is a *potentially* conflicting message between conduct and student training if you donate a primary (which I know for a fact was discussed when I certified with PADI back in the 80's, and which practice is discussed in the 1984 and 1987 version of the PADI Rescue Diver Manual). However, my argument was with someone claiming a long hose would get in the way of DM training. I suppose the original statement is open to two different interpretations, as we obviously have two expressed here.

But I think the training issue is a red herring according to PADI's own words:

Running low on or out of air...Ascend using an alternate air source. Think of this as your best all-round choice when you're out of air. But for this to work, you must know how to locate your buddy's alternate, how to secure it, and how to use it. Don't neglect these steps in your predive safety check.

Source: PADI Open Water Diving Manual, (c) 1999, emphasis added. So even PADI recognizes and trains that backups may be configured differently, and it is the diver's responsibility to familiarize himself/herself with the configuration and use thereof.

 

[DennisS]

Charlie:


But I think the training issue is a red herring according to PADI's own words:

Source: PADI Open Water Diving Manual, (c) 1999, emphasis added. So even PADI recognizes and trains that backups may be configured differently, and it is the diver's responsibility to familiarize himself/herself with the configuration and use thereof.

I don't want to dive with someone who is trained to come after my primary regulator. There is a yellow hose attached to a yellow regulator on a yellow scumball on my right D ring. If I am head down in a hole lobstering or with my eye pressed to a viewfinder I want them to grab that big ol arced yellow hose, not reach around my head and grab my primary as they were taught.

The DIR proponents say dive a long hose in caves, wrecks or open water 30 foot reefs. Consistency, same way all the time. It works for them. They also say don't dive with strokes ie. people that don't dive their system, makes sense, everyone is on the same page.

You want to teach people who are having their first scuba experience to go for the primary if its the instructor with the long hose, but if its the DM with the short hose or one of the other students go for the octopus, if its the other DM with the long hose go for the primary. Where's the consistency. Everyone should be on the same page. Are you training them to go instinctively for the primary or for the octopus. If they are trained to go after the primary of someone who is not trained to donate the primary you've created a problem.

Sure if they are panicked all bets are off and there is no telling what they'll grab but do you want train them to go after the primary.

 

[cornfed]

I don't want to dive with someone who is trained to come after my primary regulator. There is a yellow hose attached to a yellow regulator on a yellow scumball on my right D ring. If I am head down in a hole lobstering or with my eye pressed to a viewfinder I want them to grab that big ol arced yellow hose, not reach around my head and grab my primary as they were taught.

Well I don't want to dive with someone who's to busy to help me if I have a problem.

You want to teach people who are having their first scuba experience to go for the primary

In my OW class we used Air2s and the course was by no means unique in this regard.

Are you training them to go instinctively for the primary or for the octopus. If they are trained to go after the primary of someone who is not trained to donate the primary you've created a problem.

I wasn't trained to "go for" anything. I was trained to signal OOA. I was also trained to avoid sudden OOA experiences.

 

[DennisS]

I lobster, spearfish, and take pictures underwater, I use scuba to do it. The divers I dive with do the same, if my buddy is 30 or 40 ft away looking under a ledge and his air stops and I am head down in a hole he is not going to be signalling me anything. He is going for that big ol yellow hose thats arcing up with that octopus on it. Of course I'll donate it if I see him. If it wasnt for free flow I always thought the best place to mount an ocotpus was on the back of the tank, thats the part most divers see of other divers.

 

[FreeFloat]

Quick question: in an OOA/OOG situation, what is the OOA (read: "panicked") diver most likely to do?
1) signal?
2) look for, obtain and use an "octo"?
3) look for, obtain and use anything with bubbles coming out of it (a "primary")?

 

[MikeFerrara]

I don't want to dive with someone who is trained to come after my primary regulator. There is a yellow hose attached to a yellow regulator on a yellow scumball on my right D ring. If I am head down in a hole lobstering or with my eye pressed to a viewfinder I want them to grab that big ol arced yellow hose, not reach around my head and grab my primary as they were taught. [/B]

Color goes away at depth remember?

We don't rely on color in an emergency.

The one reg you have that you know is working is the one you're using and that's the one needed by a diver who's OOA.

With practice you'll be able to do without a breath for the half second it takes to get your mouth around the reg that's right under your chin where it belongs.

The reg that you carry in a scum ball has likely fallen out and/or been dragged and is full of sand or mud anyway, I'd let you use that one.

The DIR proponents say dive a long hose in caves, wrecks or open water 30 foot reefs. Consistency, same way all the time. It works for them. They also say don't dive with strokes ie. people that don't dive their system, makes sense, everyone is on the same page.

You want to teach people who are having their first scuba experience to go for the primary if its the instructor with the long hose, but if its the DM with the short hose or one of the other students go for the octopus, if its the other DM with the long hose go for the primary. Where's the consistency. Everyone should be on the same page. Are you training them to go instinctively for the primary or for the octopus. If they are trained to go after the primary of someone who is not trained to donate the primary you've created a problem.

We train them to know the benefits of different air sharing methods. Few who try a long hose and a bungied backup are ever willing to dive anything else again. To train divers to use something knowing it doesn't work as well just because many others use it makes no sense at all.

Sure if they are panicked all bets are off and there is no telling what they'll grab but do you want train them to go after the primary.

Absolutely we train people to pass off or take the primary.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I lobster, spearfish, and take pictures underwater, I use scuba to do it. The divers I dive with do the same, if my buddy is 30 or 40 ft away looking under a ledge and his air stops and I am head down in a hole he is not going to be signalling me anything. He is going for that big ol yellow hose thats arcing up with that octopus on it. Of course I'll donate it if I see him. If it wasnt for free flow I always thought the best place to mount an ocotpus was on the back of the tank, thats the part most divers see of other divers.

I think you're saying that you solo dive in a group. I teach students to be aware of their buddies location and condition.

 

[IndigoBlue]

Last Nite I met up with some friends whom I have not met for a very long time.

We were happily exchanging our diving experience/Trips feedback/our plans when the diving season opens.When one of them mentioned that he wanted to do DM which I think is BUT then there's something that he mentioned that kept me :thinkingo the whole day. He said that divers using long hose cannot do DM with most of the DC/DS in my region. Which I dun understand why?

Why can't one be train to be a DM using Long hose ?? and in What way does long hose get in the way with the training :unsure:

Does it happen in your region ??

Within the past couple of weeks, a D/M candidate asked me to be her instructor. She also asked if it was OK for her to wear a Halcyon backplate and wing as a D/M for me. I told her that was fine with me, as long as the store's C/D agreed. The store sells Halcyon gear, so it is in the interests of both the store and the students to see Halcyon gear, even though the store does not rent Halcyon gear to basic O/W students, and even though new divers do not normally purchase backplates and wings.

Whether my new D/M candidate wears a 7 ft long hose or a 36 inch long hose is also her choice, as far as I am concerned. However, she will have a hard time demonstrating to a student who might be having difficulty how to recover the primary regulator from behind her shoulder the way our training agency requires it to be taught, if she has a 7 ft long hose.

I did tell my D/M candidate that I wanted her to be sure she had at least a 45 lb lift capacity with her wing. For instructors and D/Ms, anything less is not sufficient for handling basic O/W students, in my opinion.

I do not believe it is an instructor's place to dictate to their D/M candidates how to gear up. I am grateful that she is available to D/M for me. I need someone to watch the students at the float while I conduct individual nav exercises and ESA drills. While she is supervising the divers at the float, she can take them through their surface gear removal and replacement drills as well. That saves me time as well.

Since I will be doing the primary demonstation at the pool, and since for demonstration purposes at the pool, I clip my 36 inch long hose to my chest with a yellow retainer in the "resort configuration" as an octo while I am breathing off my shorter 30 inch hose, the need for my D/M candidate to be similarly configured is obviated. At least, until she has to go one-on-one with a student who is having trouble with that drill.

So to answer your original question, Animanian, as to whether D/Ms are allowed to configure in the Halcyon/GUE-DIR long hose/backplate fashion, it all depends on (1) the store and (2) the instructor.

In our case, since the store sells the gear, there is no prejudicial issue involved against the Halcyon gear.

Since I also do not believe that instructors and D/Ms should be wearing the same gear as students, vis a vis jacket rental B/Cs with small lift capacities of 35 lbs or less, wearing back-inflation B/Cs is not an issue either.

Although I would prefer that my D/M candidate NOT wear a technical hose, which I define as anything longer than about 36 inches, however I will not dictate to her what to wear. She will possibly find out for herself that she will be more successful demonstrating to students if her longest hose is 36 inches or less for the pool.

In the ocean, instructors and D/Ms do not demonstrate, they evaluate. Therefore when we go to the ocean with a class, my D/M candidate may wear whatever she pleases.

Training questions normally always depend on the training agency as well as on store and on the instructor. That is who the scuba gods are. The Agency. The Store. And The Instructor. At least, thats the case if you want one of their C-cards.

After you get your C-card, you can then go out and do what you want.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Whether my new D/M candidate wears a 7 ft long hose or a 36 inch long hose is also her choice, as far as I am concerned. However, she will have a hard time demonstrating to a student who might be having difficulty how to recover the primary regulator from behind her shoulder the way our training agency requires it to be taught, if she has a 7 ft long hose.[/B]

What agency and what do they require?

I did tell my D/M candidate that I wanted her to be sure she had at least a 45 lb lift capacity with her wing. For instructors and D/Ms, anything less is not sufficient for handling basic O/W students, in my opinion.

[/QUOTE]

I like to teach in a well configured and balanced configuration. In the rare instance that I wear a wet suit and a single tank, I use a 27 pound wing and have never needed more. Why would I need 45 pounds? of lift?

 

[IndigoBlue]

ugh, it is a bear trying to figure out how to manipulate these new features ...

I tried quoting Mike but it did not work too well ...

here goes a 2nd try ...