Whats wrong with DIR

[Genesis]

In this case, it's not cash, but DIR. WKPP made the deal with the landowners and you have to play by their rules. They made the effort and succeeded. They only dive DIR. No exceptions.

If indeed the landowner is the state, as has been propounded, if the meetings, discussions, and all other parts of this negotiation were held "in the sunshine" as required by Florida law.

If not, well, gee, there might have been some crimes committed.

There could be some hay made out of that, if anyone wanted to press the issue....

 

[detroit diver]

Genesis once bubbled...


If indeed the landowner is the state, as has been propounded, if the meetings, discussions, and all other parts of this negotiation were held "in the sunshine" as required by Florida law.

If not, well, gee, there might have been some crimes committed.

There could be some hay made out of that, if anyone wanted to press the issue....

Hmmm. Let's see. The WKPP is doing water study work for the state, and site mapping for the state.

Doesn't look like there's any issue to press. Just another Genesis conspiracy claim. Kind of like Excedrin headache number 56.

 

[OneBrightGator]

DD... you're making it too complicated.

Can you dive at Wakulla if you don't dive DIR?

No, so it is a DIR-only site, in addition to any other requirements set forth by the WKPP.

You're right, there are plenty of other places to play, but you specifically said there are no sites that are DIR only, however you will see people diving DIR only at sites in the WKP.

Ben

 

[detroit diver]

OneBrightGator once bubbled...
DD... you're making it too complicated.

Can you dive at Wakulla if you don't dive DIR?

No, so it is a DIR-only site, in addition to any other requirements set forth by the WKPP.

You're right, there are plenty of other places to play, but you specifically said there are no sites that are DIR only, however you will see people diving DIR only at sites in the WKP.

Ben

Let's ask it a different way: Can you dive Wakulla if you have a DIR certification?

No. Gue doesn't own rights to the site. The WKPP does. I might have a GUE DIR card, but I can wipe my butt with it trying to get into Wakulla.

It's a WKPP site. Ask the owners and they'll tell ya.

You're trying to shove the square DIR peg into the round WKPP hole. It doesn't fit.

 

[Genesis]

Hmmm. Let's see. The WKPP is doing water study work for the state, and site mapping for the state.

Irrelavent.

ALL discussions that bear on state matters must be discussed "in the sunshine". That's a state law. Its pretty unique in the US, in fact, and its a GOOD law.

Something as simple as two county commissioners discussing a business matter before the commission over a beer in the bar is a CRIMINAL violation of the law in this state.

Florida used to have one of the most-closed governments in the nation. Since the Sunshine law's passage, we have one of the most open, and a law with teeth to insure that it stays that way.

 

[O-ring]

OneBrightGator once bubbled...


The whole reason I got into this thread was because of Eric's post suggesting that the WKPP and the CDS both have control of sites for the same reason, which is false. The WKPP has control of thier sites to do research, which has greatly limited access, the CDS has control of thier sites to keep them open to the general cave diving population, which is why I favor one organization over the other.

Ben

..I dunno if I said that exactly, but they do both have control of some sites. Doesn't NOAA control access to the Monitor? Don't you have to get some weird permit and jump through 200 hoops to dive the Lusitania? And last I heard the families of the victims of the Edmund Fitzgerald tragedy had diving on that wreck prohibited. Why isn't anyone attacking them for the same reasons? Sometimes you can't dive wherever you want, and you just have to deal with it.

Anyway, this was kind of a hijacking anyway and takes away from the stellar thread we have going here.

 

[mgri]

OneBrightGator once bubbled...
You're right, there are plenty of other places to play....

Ben, that seems to be the deference between you and the WKPP. You just want to play. You are a young kid, nothing wrong with wanting to play but they are interested in doing actually research. I'm sure that the biggest driving factor for these guys and gals to get access initially was for the sake of exploration in the guise of scientific research but even if today they are still mainly focused on exploring they are and have done a lot of scientific research in regards to karsts systems. To them it is not about playing.

I don't think all the divers are in it for just good cave diving. I'm sure some (maybe chick diver can attests to this) of the divers are scientist first.

But what do I know maybe they are just cave diving N@zis that want it all to themselves.

 

[JeffG]

The disscussion of DIR is what is wrong. It seems to be the most fought over, missunderstood topic.

IMHO

I think that the attribute is attached to the wrong thing.

Divers are not DIR.

The dives they do are either DIR or not.

and the "Whys" to that....who really gives a ****.

 

[MikeFerrara]

In cave diving, site access has always been a pain. Many caves are on private property so you need to be buds with the land owner. I had the same problem when I used to hunt.

I belong to the NSS-CDS and the NACD because they actively work toward securing access for their members. The CDS owns several sites and is in the process of buying more. I don't belong to GUE because I haven't been able to figure out what it would do for me other than get me on Quest.

There are sites like the WKP that are closed escept to groups with approved research purposes. We have some in Missouri and other states as well.

In theory, any one could apply for access to the WKP or any of the other sites. I've never tried it but I'm guessing some polotics would enter into it and you might end up with a third party lobbying against you. However there's always been polotics also.

The gripe I've always had with the WKPP is just the number of times I've read GI badmouthing cave divers in general. If land owners listened to him we couldn't dive any place.

I have discussed this with Chickdiver before and she assures me that GI's statements against cave divers in general do not reflect WKPP polocy or agandas. I left it at that.

 

[detroit diver]

Genesis once bubbled...


Irrelavent.

ALL discussions that bear on state matters must be discussed "in the sunshine". That's a state law. Its pretty unique in the US, in fact, and its a GOOD law.

Something as simple as two county commissioners discussing a business matter before the commission over a beer in the bar is a CRIMINAL violation of the law in this state.

Florida used to have one of the most-closed governments in the nation. Since the Sunshine law's passage, we have one of the most open, and a law with teeth to insure that it stays that way.

1. Do you know positively that access is all state land? If so, let's see it.

2. Do you know that this wasn't discussed properly within the boundaries of what was acceptable to the parties at the time? Let's see the info if that is the case.

3. If this issue is so blatant, how come their isn't a grand jury investigation going on?