What's with the UTD haters?

[tiki_bill]

Spending $1000 to be compatible with a dive guide in Truk is a little off the wall, don't you think?

 

[Kevrumbo]

Really? So you've been turning your valves on and off during your dives for the last ten years? How is diving with only one bottle on at a time not independent? People talk about the QC6 being the failure point, what about the extra OPV that you have to have on each first stage? And that is not how they teach gas switches in GUE.

I think SanDiegoSidemount and I have been having a logical discussion. I believe all you have done is brag about how much money you can spend.

To keep consistency with the Long-Hose Paradigm I first learned in GUE Fundies, I have accommodated the learning curve of the Z-system distribution block, and incorporated its contingency procedures to make any rare occurrence "failure points" a benign & manageable event. And I have objectively shown that I am perfectly compatible tech/deco diving with other GUE Divers, in a "serendipitous mixed-team" from last December's Truk Trip.

Spending $1000 to be compatible with a dive guide in Truk is a little off the wall, don't you think?

A fool and his money are soon parted. A bigger fool spends more than his means.

But most of all if y'all haters can't afford to pay, to do it right . . .then don't play.

 

[gearhound]

I think the rest of us don't have to pay to get dive buddies.

 

[Subcooled]

This discussion of minute detail, numbers of steps, etc. etc. gives an impression of fear of the unknown

Relax. Both systems (UTD vs trad) are far superior to the rented worn out bcd + SpareAir.

The key to gas sharing is to 1. have enough gas 2. keep your eyes open and stay close 3. be able to perform a two minute breath hold.

Lähetetty minun GT-S7710 laitteesta Tapatalkilla

 

[SanDiegoSidemount]

This discussion of minute detail, numbers of steps, etc. etc. gives an impression of fear of the unknown

Really, it's just a testament to the attention to detail that's in the UTD procedures book. (It's probably similar for GUE and others.)

Once you write them all out, it's a lot of steps, but most of them are small, simple, and self-evident:

1. Stop at the correct gas switch depth.
2. Establish neutral buoyancy -- ideally divers are positioned face to face (conditions permitting) or side by side if facing a current.
3. Deco Captain signals teammate the gas switch signal.

... and so on.

The key to gas sharing is to 1. have enough gas 2. keep your eyes open and stay close 3. be able to peeform a two mimute breath hold.

"Rule of thirds" for breath hold! A third of what's in your lungs belongs to your buddy!

 

[Subcooled]

Of course. I have seen some GUE books and drills.

But... comparing the number of moves is a bit... Is it not the culture, the way of doing things, and above all the state of mind that are important?

---------- Post added February 13th, 2014 at 02:34 AM ----------

"Rule of thirds" for breath hold! A third of what's in your lungs belongs to your buddy!

For a very special buddy

 

[tphelps]

I'm a UTD fan. Bought a couple of my lights from them including their 50 watt vision pro (the thing is a sun under water). I havent had the best of luck with their light chargers but they have been very good about sending me replacement ones.

I dive the Z-system and I love it! Perfect travel size and works really well! Not into their manifold system for sidemount but I use a QC6 on my rebreather BOV and it comes in handy!

 

[alainnajm]

to go back to the topic of this thread: what's with all the UTD haters?
after reading ALL the replies on this thread, i take it that the only issues some people have with UTD is with regards to the Z-manifold and rebreather program.
i understand difference in opinions: it's only normal and it's healthy to discuss and scrutinise.

we can go on discussing the Z-manifold and it's advantages and disadvantages. but at this moment, i don't think it matters if i give my opinion about it.

however, Z-manifold aside, do we agree that UTD is offering high quality training for its students and have succeeded in developing grade-A committed and responsible instructors?

i believe this is the real topic for this thread. this is not religion: you can congratulate an agency or instructor on a good job and still have some remarks. the Z-manifold isn't reason enough in my opinion to discard the whole agency's success and achievements.

i am curious to learn your opinions on this. keep it coming.

 

[Kevrumbo]

A great insightful post from "Dave1981" on RebreatherWorld:

. . .Everything in the UTD system of diving relies on the same training methodology, you learn the same skill set in open water as you do in sidemount CCR at the other end of the scale, there are a couple of differences to learn in sidemount but the same principals apply as to our focus on trim, buoyancy the team and having the entire gas supply dontatable through the long hose.

So the progression goes, that from Open Water single tank backmount, if you're going into the overhead you need gas redunancy, so you learn the additional skills to dive doubles and in the overhead. Nothing changes you just add to what you know. Next if you go into deco then we add deco bottles on the left to the existing system, going further we add stages and leash.. everything is just built in steps upon what we already know without any changes in previous procedures. So with the MX [UTD Rebreather] we just keep a set of doubles, slide an Rebreather in between them and add that to the existing skill set. So when you learn an RB then nothing is new except the loop, can and a couple of buttons. The compromise here is that the longhose is now clipped off and the necklace is the BOV.

So the question [becomes] do you either not do the types of dive that require RBs or accept that compromise? I think it's acceptable so I'm happy to dive the MX.

Now move that over to sidemount, we want to go places that require it. So with that in mind it's a case of reworking the skill set to use an existing system, or figure out a way to incorporate sidemount into our existing protocols or just not go at all.

That's kind of the start of the manifold [& Distribution Block], how to incorporate a looped long hose, necklace and access to all available gas through to both divers. It seems to be about the only way to do that.

The Argument here seems to be that in the case of independent doubles you don't need the hog looped set up, and in a specific case that is true, but it doesn't scale. In single tank rec sidemount it's not possible to pass off a tank, so how do you dontate, 2 regs from one first stage? It doesn't scale with our training if you don't donate the longhose from your mouth. So when you move onto the double tank setup, if you want to utilise 2 short hoses and independent tanks then fine, but it doesn't follow on in any of the UTD classes to change your skill set from the previous class. Thus with the Manifold you've just added another tank to the system you already know.

Now scale that again to the rebreather, and if you have a single Dil/bailout rec setup then again you can't pass the bottle, sure now you have many alternatives from the traditional rebreather train of thought, however they won't integrate completely with the rest of the equipment we use.

So to sum that up, the core is the DIR doubles set up. It's possible to refine that in certain areas, however doing so doesn't fit into the building block methodology of teaching. . .

So c'mon all you UTD Detractors: put way all those tired cliches, trite phrases & specious misleading arguments regarding failure points/Single-Point Failures, "a gear solution in search of a problem", and not conforming to true DIR orthodoxy & the incompatible "mixed team OC/RB/SM/BM" etc . . .what works, works!

 

[gearhound]

to go back to the topic of this thread: what's with all the UTD haters?
after reading ALL the replies on this thread, i take it that the only issues some people have with UTD is with regards to the Z-manifold and rebreather program.
i understand difference in opinions: it's only normal and it's healthy to discuss and scrutinise.

we can go on discussing the Z-manifold and it's advantages and disadvantages. but at this moment, i don't think it matters if i give my opinion about it.

however, Z-manifold aside, do we agree that UTD is offering high quality training for its students and have succeeded in developing grade-A committed and responsible instructors?

i believe this is the real topic for this thread. this is not religion: you can congratulate an agency or instructor on a good job and still have some remarks. the Z-manifold isn't reason enough in my opinion to discard the whole agency's success and achievements.

i am curious to learn your opinions on this. keep it coming.

The Z-manifold gets brought up because this question was posted in the side mount forum.

I have to ask all of the rest of the UTD divers out there, are you proud of a guy that goes around posting his gas bill to show how much he spent? Is this really who you want representing your organization? Or are you actually embarrassed? I am actually curious to hear your answer, because it goes a long way in how people perceive your organization.

I believe I was using logic in my discussions. I'll preface this in saying that I've owned two UTD wings, one of which I've had to send back for quality issues. I think I got one of the first batches, so can understand that. We had to send back two of three, as well as a light that wasn't working. UTD replaced the wings. I have the UTD Fundamentals of Tec manual and DVD. I've been diving sidemount long before the current craze started and am very passionate about it and try to stay current. Up until Halcyon came out with their sidemount rig, I think I've owned or dove most of the side mount rigs out there, including homemade and MSR bags. I try to look at things not by the label on them, but their capabilities.

If one of your paradigms is to stay completely compatible with a Hogarthian/DIR/GUE back mount diver, then I've already shown that you are not. They don't use a QC6 for gas switches. What do you do with a lost gas situation where the back mount diver doesn't have a QC6? They don't dive with one tank turned off all the time. Do I think that you can't dive around that way? No, I'm sure you can and might never have an issue. But I don't see why you think I can't reach up with my right arm and donate a long hose that may be on a breakaway clip.

One of your proponents commented on cave diving and sump diving as if he were looking down upon it - does he realize that the origins of sidemount are in cave diving? And the Hogarthian/DIR philosophies come from cave explorers? Failure points aside, the people that are still doing lots of cave exploration will not use the manifold system because of the snag points. There are extra hoses that can get hung up on a formation and abraded. And if you're stuck in a restriction and have a free flow or a "finger tight" second stage pop off, there may be no way of reaching back and isolating (assuming you upgraded to the manifold with and isolator). Your total gas supply is compromised. So again, I will point out that I can go where you go, but you can't go everywhere that I can go. Your system shouldn't be used to go where sidemount was originally designed for.

One of your staunchest defenders is tacitly admitting that even he doesn't trust the system. He needs to bring along two systems to do his diving. Backmount for his deep dives in the morning. And he keeps bringing up the metric system to a Canadian. I'm not sure why that is such an important point. Doesn't every tec course teach gas matching?

I have no problems with UTD as an organization. But if we were to bring up religion, I see a bunch of zealots that are not tolerant of other peoples views and go around quoting what their great leader has to say. What's next? Are they going to strap on vests?

Any of you play sports? You ever been in a locker room full of people that have been playing the game for years and then have a cocky rookie walk in? And he's running his mouth off telling everyone how he's the greatest thing that ever walked the earth before he's proven anything on the field? And telling the veterans that they don't know how to play? That's the analogy that I would use to describe your standing in the sidemount community.

I respect the organization, but do you have the same respect for others? And you really need to get better people defending it.