What's with the deaths?

[cliffdiver]

I've gone on several dives with a few different DMs since my OW cert in August and noticed an unmistakable atmosphere of "you are out of OW now, you're certified, you know what you need to do, you can now take care of yourself" before and during the dives. Very little if any review of anything beyond basic dive conditions and a few signs, and we were off, rushed - it felt - into the water without the comprehensive gear and buddy checks that I'd learned about. A friend who went through OW with me joined me on a few of these dives, and we found ourselves afterwards wondering aloud lots of things, including "what about buddy checks!?!" We were keen to do them but felt rushed into the water before we could. On one occasion, it became clear as we approached the dive site that the others on the boat were getting ready to jump into the water as soon as we stopped, without doing any gear/buddy checks. Next thing I know, even my designated buddy is in the water before I finish getting fully kitted up. I scrambled to check myself out as fully as I could before jumping in myself.

Perhaps I didn't notice checks the others and the DMs had done before we dove on each of these occasions, and perhaps they did check themselves out. But I am a fairly educated and observant person, and I remain astonished at the degree to which seemingly most of the very experienced divers I've now been out with were cavalier about their buddy checks. I asked a friend who's logged hundreds of hours of dives about all this. "Oh no, you never have to worry about [gear checks]. The DM will always do all that for you." What I've learned very clearly is not all bad: I definitely need to watch out very carefully and fully for myself; I cannot depend on a DM or buddy. Not all good either, because there are obvious good reasons for this buddy system.

My personal observations about the approach of so many experienced divers: many are far less anal about gear checks, buddy checks, buddy rules, and safety in general than I am comfortable with. Scary. Sure, that's kind of normal when you compare 'new' to 'veteran.' I think diverbrain hits it on the head when he mentions complacency and arrogance. I almost wonder to what degree it's "uncool" if you're an experienced diver to be seen doing "newbie-like" buddy checks and the like. I think I need to dive with MikeF, diverbrain, Diver0001...

I know, absolutely, that there are tons of very safe divers plodding the waters today. Perhaps I've just had abnormally unlucky experiences in this regard, and it's not bad that I've learned that I need to be very good about checking myself and my gear - and my buddy - out as much as possible. However, as good as my OW instructors were, during OW and since I've never been tested with an OOA or free-flow situation in mid-water, or any of the other tests that MikeF mentioned near the beginning of this thread (I'm thinking pool doesn't count.)

There is no doubt in my mind that we need more MikeF-like instructors to shove our sorry butts squarely into the realm of incredibly safe diving, where drills and practice are more the norm than the exception. We know that it doesn't have to come at the expense of fun either. We all agree that the safer, more skilled and more confident we are, the more fun we have.

I want very much to learn to handle the worst of situations under the worst of conditions so that I may one day be able to dive the harshest of conditions with confidence. Unfortunately, I think I'm in the minority, if I may judge just from the others in my OW and AOW classes. What can we do if the majority of the world's divers are "Warm Water Wusses?" (Is that "WWW?")

This Board may have well saved my life and that of a buddy, because I have now learned that I need - unfortunately at my own initiative and not earlier - to enlist the services of a good instructor who will test me and be damn sure that I'm good, competant, safe, and a good buddy.

 

[DandyDon]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

We tell people it's a safe sport.

I don't. I refer to Scuba as a potentially dangerous sport - which we try to manage safely. And when you look at DAN fatality reports - like 77 in a year, or 6 a month, our record is good. Take out the really dumb stunts and uncertified divers, even better. 6 people die in Dallas from traffic in a day, no big deal.

But it's good to remind ourselves to try to be safer. I dived in Cozumel last week with 10 other tourists I wouldn't trust for anything more challenging than driving a car and 2 DMs with bad equipment, and I was glad that I had a pony bottle.

One of the newbies with 7 SW dives asked me if the pony was worth the trouble, and I asked him how many fire extinguishers he owned. "None." Didn't say anything from there. I was the only one diving Nitrox, and the Rescue Certified diver leading the group kept violating her computer on the second dive of a day, with no extra steps. Most weren't diving computers, but commented on "how many rules they broke."

So, I'm going to try to be a more self sufficient diver, all the while being helpful to those who want my help. Two of those 10 did.



don

 

[MikeFerrara]

I really enjoyed this post. And no it's not because you mentioned me a few times. I enjoyed it because you're new and I think you get it.

This stuff isn't tricky or hard but it is ignored.

Buddy checks...

I certainly won't tell any one that I've never started a dive without one. There have been times when we do a really quick one, just checking the really critical things. We do have some advantages though. Our gear is the same and when diving with the same people we make sure we have everything and nothing is leaking even on our sloppy days. Underline the word sloppy.

SOP is a head to toe equipment match. It's a little different than "BWRAF" (for the PADI folks) but the purpose is the same, to make sure we have everything and that we each know what the other has. We call off our equipment from head to toe including what's in our pockets. We then do a bubble check and a modified S (make sure our long hose is deployable). We usually stop at some intermediate depth (the exact depth depends on the dive) and do a final bubble/comfort check. With practice this takes only moments and becomes reflex. It also uncovers some pretty funny equipment assembly mistakes and things forgotten.

The experienced divers you see who skip these formalities are not skipping them because they're to good to do them or because they don't need them any more. They skip it because they don't get it.

My father is an experienced pilot and he still uses a written pre-flight check list to make sure he doesn't miss anything. It works.

I just recently took an Advanced trimix class. two of the three students were cave trained and at least one of us was an instructor. Still, every dive started with the above steps and a dive briefing by whoever was designated team leader. Each dive was followed with a debriefing by each of us. The idea is to not miss anything and to improve the next time. It works and it's fun.

Accidents...

If there has to be one really big misconception in diving, it's that accidents are caused by catastrophic events. They're not (unless it's a heart attack or something). They usually start with a very small thing that is almost never life threatening in the least. If that little problem isn't handled well and/or causes stress it can cause other little problems. These little problems add up until some one looses it and HURTS THEMSELF. Every accident I've ever seen or looked into follows this patterm. the diver seemingly says...Ï'm having a bad day so I think I'll punch out, shoot to the surface and spit my lungs out" (panic) or just lose control phisically. It's a chain and can be stopped at any point but needs to be stopped. The skills that allow you to stop it or avoid it completely aren't mystical skills that we're taught in cave training or instructor training. They are the basics that we are supposed to learn as NEW OW divers.

The basics folks are the most important. We use them on every dive whether it's at 20 ft or 300 ft. The basics are what keep us in control and they are as important or MORE important for a new diver as they are for an explorer at 300 ft.

Entry level training is the only place where these basic skills are the main subject and that's where they need to be masted. If they aren't the educational process just adds cards and tasks but that's all and starts to look a lot like that accident chain.

cliffdiver once bubbled...
I've gone on several dives with a few different DMs since my OW cert in August and noticed an unmistakable atmosphere of "you are out of OW now, you're certified, you know what you need to do, you can now take care of yourself" before and during the dives. Very little if any review of anything beyond basic dive conditions and a few signs, and we were off, rushed - it felt - into the water without the comprehensive gear and buddy checks that I'd learned about. A friend who went through OW with me joined me on a few of these dives, and we found ourselves afterwards wondering aloud lots of things, including "what about buddy checks!?!" We were keen to do them but felt rushed into the water before we could. On one occasion, it became clear as we approached the dive site that the others on the boat were getting ready to jump into the water as soon as we stopped, without doing any gear/buddy checks. Next thing I know, even my designated buddy is in the water before I finish getting fully kitted up. I scrambled to check myself out as fully as I could before jumping in myself.

Perhaps I didn't notice checks the others and the DMs had done before we dove on each of these occasions, and perhaps they did check themselves out. But I am a fairly educated and observant person, and I remain astonished at the degree to which seemingly most of the very experienced divers I've now been out with were cavalier about their buddy checks. I asked a friend who's logged hundreds of hours of dives about all this. "Oh no, you never have to worry about [gear checks]. The DM will always do all that for you." What I've learned very clearly is not all bad: I definitely need to watch out very carefully and fully for myself; I cannot depend on a DM or buddy. Not all good either, because there are obvious good reasons for this buddy system.

My personal observations about the approach of so many experienced divers: many are far less anal about gear checks, buddy checks, buddy rules, and safety in general than I am comfortable with. Scary. Sure, that's kind of normal when you compare 'new' to 'veteran.' I think diverbrain hits it on the head when he mentions complacency and arrogance. I almost wonder to what degree it's "uncool" if you're an experienced diver to be seen doing "newbie-like" buddy checks and the like. I think I need to dive with MikeF, diverbrain, Diver0001...

I know, absolutely, that there are tons of very safe divers plodding the waters today. Perhaps I've just had abnormally unlucky experiences in this regard, and it's not bad that I've learned that I need to be very good about checking myself and my gear - and my buddy - out as much as possible. However, as good as my OW instructors were, during OW and since I've never been tested with an OOA or free-flow situation in mid-water, or any of the other tests that MikeF mentioned near the beginning of this thread (I'm thinking pool doesn't count.)

There is no doubt in my mind that we need more MikeF-like instructors to shove our sorry butts squarely into the realm of incredibly safe diving, where drills and practice are more the norm than the exception. We know that it doesn't have to come at the expense of fun either. We all agree that the safer, more skilled and more confident we are, the more fun we have.

I want very much to learn to handle the worst of situations under the worst of conditions so that I may one day be able to dive the harshest of conditions with confidence. Unfortunately, I think I'm in the minority, if I may judge just from the others in my OW and AOW classes. What can we do if the majority of the world's divers are "Warm Water Wusses?" (Is that "WWW?")

This Board may have well saved my life and that of a buddy, because I have now learned that I need - unfortunately at my own initiative and not earlier - to enlist the services of a good instructor who will test me and be damn sure that I'm good, competant, safe, and a good buddy.

 

[theskull]

"I don't think any of this is meant to pick on new divers. Every one understands you have to start some place. I do sometimes express my displeasure with the start new divers sometimes get."

Mike F--I enjoy most of your posts, and believe that you show good diving judgment and well-reasoned arguments. . . BUT. . .

If you don't want the new divers to feel picked on for receiving training so inferior to what they could have had from you, then post your anti-agency rants on the "Instructor to instructor" forum where only your fellow professionals will be subject to them.

How 'bout we congratulate the new divers on having completed their entry-level training and joining us in the fabulous underwater environment. And encourage them to seek additional experience through regular diving with experienced divers and further training with instructors who come recommended from their diving contacts. I believe most who spend time on this board "get it" or at least want to get it, and will move in the correct direction with encouragement.

OTOH, the dive student who gets a certification so he/she can go to the carribean 6 months from now to make 2 dives will not be significantly better served by rigorous training procedures that will be forgotten by the time they enter the water again.

theskull

 

[theskull]

Cliffdiver,

"What about buddy checks?"

Buddy checks are vitally important. Not all divers do them, but all safety-conscious divers do! Please be aware, though, that many of us experienced regularly-wet divers who have many regular buddies can accomplish our buddy check silently and with a couple glances that you won't even notice on a boat.

My regular buddies thoroughly check out their gear as they assemble it; I do the same with mine. We do it often enough that I can be watching them while doing mine. So it will often be silent and unobservable to a casual bystander. Some times I may have missed a thing or 2 and just reach over and test his octo if I didn't see him breathe it or he may pull aside my cumberbund to see if I am wearing a weight belt today rather than using integrated weights. We will have performed the check before entering the water even though neither of us talked about "big white rabbits are fluffy" or "begin with review and friend". Plus we also noticed whether the tank was securely strapped in and if a hose was routed under a shoulder strap or a pocket was left open. Some of us "old timers" are very safety conscious and oriented to basics--but you may not always see it, unless we are buddied with you and want to be obvious about it so you know that we are looking out for you.

theskull

 

[cliffdiver]

theskull once bubbled...

My regular buddies thoroughly check out their gear as they assemble it; I do the same with mine. We do it often enough that I can be watching them while doing mine. So it will often be silent and unobservable to a casual bystander. Some times I may have missed a thing or 2 and just reach over and test his octo if I didn't see him breathe it or he may pull aside my cumberbund to see if I am wearing a weight belt today rather than using integrated weights. We will have performed the check before entering the water even though neither of us talked about "big white rabbits are fluffy" or "begin with review and friend". Plus we also noticed whether the tank was securely strapped in and if a hose was routed under a shoulder strap or a pocket was left open. Some of us "old timers" are very safety conscious and oriented to basics--but you may not always see it, unless we are buddied with you and want to be obvious about it so you know that we are looking out for you.

theskull [/B]

Thanks, theskull. I actually suspected - and hoped - that, and I suspect that I'll find myself some day doing the same sort of comprehensive yet veiled checks with my buddys. I hope I get that good. Nonetheless, it sure seems that this isn't the case for many veterans. That's why I think I need to dive with the likes of you guys.

MikeF's dad goes through his pre-flight checklist every flight, even all these years later for one reason: flying, like diving, can sure-as-heck be deadly, but it isn't because we're anal about checking everything out. Anyway, I know you guys know that. Until I'm lots more confident and proven myself as such do the most stringent standards, as tested by divers like you guys, I need out-loud checks, and it seems that's tough to get when the whole boat is emptied seemingly before the anchor even drops.

I've been lucky to learn, MikeF, fortunately, that most of the big accidents start with something small, and that yeah, it's not a heart attack or anything like that, as you say. One of the good things I think my instructors successfully instilled in me was the "stop, think, then act" mantra.

And thanks, I hope I do get it. I need to, because I'm one of those divers who started off not too comfortable in the water. I want to be more and more comfortable, and so far I love diving, and I don't want to be a "WWW." But, though I may know what they are under different names, I don't even know what a "bubble check" (though I think I could figure that out, and it sure would have saved me a dive in Cozumel recently) and "modified S" are.

Can you enlighten me on those?

See, this is great. I'm learning tons, and now I can add the idea of another check once we've decended to an intermediate depth.

 

[Seadiver5]

Divers become complacent and complacency always causes problems. With the more advanced diving taking place these days (tech, cave etc.) many feel that regular diving is somehow easy and or not really dangerous.

Additionally it is thought that Most people lie on their medical forms and "hidden" medical conditions can cause many problems as well

Scuba is fun but it is also a serious sport and the dangers need to be heeded.

Kevin Parkhurst
IDEA Instructor 3402

 

[ColdH2Odvr]

We loose one or two divers a year around here (three on a busy year), this year was no exception. I’m second guessing the dead here which is in bad taste at the least but… Inexperience seems to play a large part in the majority of the cases. Remember this: If you’ve got air and you’re still breathing, you’re not dead. If you’re not dead then don’t panic, anything else you can deal with. Seriously, when the S@#$ hits the fan do what ever you have to to swallow the panic and deal with the situation. Working too hard to keep up with your buddy/the current? Over breathing your reg, building up CO2, getting narced and starting to panic? Learn this feeling, watch for it and stop when it starts.

Dive buddy: Shooting fish, stringer gets caught in the rocks, inflators not helping so you dump your weight belt… now you’re a balloon; this is where a buddy might be useful. RB problem got you hypoxic? Start to surface, get hypoxic, drift down and regain consciousness, start to surface hypoxic… Not a problem if you get out when your OC buddy does. Got a buddy but they suck? Get a new one. Thousands of ppl on this board looking to dive.

Newbies: There are some seriously excellent divers spouting off around here, hook up with one and put them in the water. Watch what they do and ask why. Hopefully your instructor passed on a love and RESPECT for the water. OW = learners permit. AOW = …well, that’s a subject for another thread.

Instructors: Do your job (please)
Students: Do your job (again, please)

I dive because I love to dive. I’ve managed to survive my own stupidity (so far), good luck and go dive.

Dave,

SJC Dive Rescue/Recovery

 

[MikeFerrara]

cliffdiver once bubbled...


I don't even know what a "bubble check" (though I think I could figure that out, and it sure would have saved me a dive in Cozumel recently) and "modified S" are.

Can you enlighten me on those?

Sorry. A bubble check is what it sounds like. We check each other for leaks by looking for bubbles. Leaks are easier to find in the water.

Modified S... The S stands for safety. A full blown S drill would be doing a share air drill. In a modified S drill we make sure our long hose (or whatever alternate there is) is where it should be and deployable and that our backup is where it should be and functioning.

 

[MikeFerrara]

theskull once bubbled...
"I don't think any of this is meant to pick on new divers. Every one understands you have to start some place. I do sometimes express my displeasure with the start new divers sometimes get."

Mike F--I enjoy most of your posts, and believe that you show good diving judgment and well-reasoned arguments. . . BUT. . .

If you don't want the new divers to feel picked on for receiving training so inferior to what they could have had from you, then post your anti-agency rants on the "Instructor to instructor" forum where only your fellow professionals will be subject to them.

How 'bout we congratulate the new divers on having completed their entry-level training and joining us in the fabulous underwater environment. And encourage them to seek additional experience through regular diving with experienced divers and further training with instructors who come recommended from their diving contacts. I believe most who spend time on this board "get it" or at least want to get it, and will move in the correct direction with encouragement.

OTOH, the dive student who gets a certification so he/she can go to the carribean 6 months from now to make 2 dives will not be significantly better served by rigorous training procedures that will be forgotten by the time they enter the water again.

theskull

Specifically which statement did you object to? The subject of the thread is accidents and deaths. I offered my opinion on why they sometimes happen and how to avoid them.

Should I repeat the party line that diving is safe, fun and for the whole family in a thread titled "What's With the Deaths"? Should I assure every one that these accidents happened because the creator was in a bad mood that day and it isn't anyones fault while others use statistics to try to make it a non-issue. I'd rather present my own statistics like when I pointed out that nearly all the free flows I've seen resulted in a rapid ascent. You're welcome to disput them though.

Let's start a different thread to convey congrats to new divers. Somehow the title of this thread doesn't seem fitting.