What's with the deaths?

[MikeFerrara]

adshepard once bubbled...
Each year over the past two decades between 180 to 200 deaths have been reported of divers. The numbers are fairly consistent. It's the reporting and the advent of the Internet that make it look like more and more people are dying.

There is no epidemic out there. The sky is not falling. No training agency is to blaim nor are training standards to blaim Stuff happens and always will.

DSDO

Alan

IMO, it's not the number of deaths or an increase in the number that indicates a problem. It's tha cause of the deaths, injuries and near misses. One is too many if it could have been avoided. Who cares about statistics when it's you or a loved one.

On second thought, the next time I have to talk with a little boy after he watched his mother get pulled from the water screaming, maybe I should point out the good statistics.

After teaching with current standards for a few years, I disagree and believe that they are to blame. they don't prevent an instructor from teaching a good class but they don't force it either.

 

[IndigoBlue]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


IMO, it's not the number of deaths or an increase in the number that indicates a problem. It's tha cause of the deaths, injuries and near misses. One is too many if it could have been avoided. Who cares about statistics when it's you or a loved one.

On second thought, the next time I have to talk with a little boy after he watched his mother get pulled from the water screaming, maybe I should point out the good statistics.

After teaching with current standards for a few years, I disagree and believe that they are to blame. they don't prevent an instructor from teaching a good class but they don't force it either.

My impression of the reason which is primarily to blame for most deaths is the failure to have a reliable buddy nearby. That applies to expert as well as novice divers. And it subdivides into buddy separation, buddy unreliability, and/or solo diving.

As far as the actual cause, that could be anything. But whatever the cause, a good reliable buddy should normally have been able to intervene.

Thats just my own observation. And it does not apply to going into caves, which I know nothing about, nor care to.

 

[MikeFerrara]

IndigoBlue once bubbled...


My impression of the reason which is primarily to blame for most deaths is the failure to have a reliable buddy nearby. That applies to expert as well as novice divers. And it subdivides into buddy separation, buddy unreliability, and/or solo diving.

As far as the actual cause, that could be anything. But whatever the cause, a good reliable buddy should normally have been able to intervene.

Thats just my own observation. And it does not apply to going into caves, which I know nothing about, nor care to.

First off, I don't know if we can show that being alone caused the injury or death but I do know that in most fatalities and injuries I've seen and read about the diver was alone in the final moments.

So...
Lets jump on by trying to relate it directly to training standards ok?

While we talk about diving with a buddy in entry level training do we actually teach it? I say NO becausee there aren't any in-water performance requirements to measure ones skill as a buddy in most classes. In most OW classes that I see, the students just follow the instructor around (and the dives are rather short at that). So are the students ever asked to demonstrate that they can be a buddy? I say No. Did they ever practice it? I say no? We tell them it's important but then we certify them without ever letting them try it even once.

Do we further develop these skills in AOW, rescue or even DM or instructor training? I'll say no again for the same reasons. If you disagree, just show me the specific performance requirements.

 

[Diver0001]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...



<snip>

If you disagree, just show me the specific performance requirements.

OOA drills, both as donor and receiver.

It's the quintessential buddy skill.

I know what you're about to say. Yes it needs to be done mid water. Yes you need to learn contact and positioning so you're in the right place at the right time. Yes you need to have surprise drills to prove that it can be done when the pressure is on. And a good instructor will make sure these things happen.

And obviously in isolation it isn't enough and there is a big gap to be filled in the sense that the buddy system is delivered in individual skills with often too little emphasis given to pulling it together under water. Seems to me that many students miss the point entirely but a good instructor will help them apply a little abstraction to the material too. The material is not detailed enough to just re-read it and expect everyone to get the point. That's the reason experienced safety oriented divers with strong opnions like yourself need to become (and stay!) instructors. The anecdotes, the (horror) stories, the (seemingly) little things that make a big difference..... It's impossible to teach them everything from the start but you give too little credit to instructors who understand that they need to embellish the material and who understand the *intention* of the standards ......

Take positioning. The 77 year-old woman. She hung up and back from her buddy all the time (according to the article-I'm sure you saw this too) because she could see her buddy better. Damned lot of good that did her when it was her turn to be in the soup. Nobody taught her that this is the *worst* place to be but a good instructors would have. *You* would have. And a good DM would have given that tip free of charge on the first post-dive debriefing.

Anyway this is starting to sound like a rant but it just kills me to see people like you get all cynical about training and even get out of the game when other instructors need good roll models to emulate. I don't understand how you think all this bitter sniping at standards and instructors is going to help anything change.

R..

 

[MikeFerrara]

Diver0001 once bubbled...


OOA drills, both as donor and receiver.

It's the quintessential buddy skill.

I know what you're about to say. Yes it needs to be done mid water. Yes you need to learn contact and positioning so you're in the right place at the right time. Yes you need to have surprise drills to prove that it can be done when the pressure is on. And a good instructor will make sure these things happen.

And obviously in isolation it isn't enough and there is a big gap to be filled in the sense that the buddy system is delivered in individual skills with often too little emphasis given to pulling it together under water. Seems to me that many students miss the point entirely but a good instructor will help them apply a little abstraction to the material too. The material is not detailed enough to just re-read it and expect everyone to get the point. That's the reason experienced safety oriented divers with strong opnions like yourself need to become (and stay!) instructors. The anecdotes, the (horror) stories, the (seemingly) little things that make a big difference..... It's impossible to teach them everything from the start but you give too little credit to instructors who understand that they need to embellish the material and who understand the *intention* of the standards ......

I don't give too little credit to good instructors. In fact that's my point really. A good instructor can and will throw in the little things that make a big difference and many do. However he isn't getting any help from the standards or the agency. Some agencies almost reward those who don't.

It is important to understand the intent of the standards. However, the intent of the standards isn't, IMO, binding enough. Between what is written in the standards and other signals from the agency, I'm not sure what the intent really is.

Take positioning. The 77 year-old woman. She hung up and back from her buddy all the time (according to the article-I'm sure you saw this too) because she could see her buddy better. Damned lot of good that did her when it was her turn to be in the soup. Nobody taught her that this is the *worst* place to be but a good instructors would have. *You* would have. And a good DM would have given that tip free of charge on the first post-dive debriefing.

Yes. her buddy (or whoever said that) didn't realize how telling it was did they. That's a good example.

Anyway this is starting to sound like a rant but it just kills me to see people like you get all cynical about training and even get out of the game when other instructors need good roll models to emulate. I don't understand how you think all this bitter sniping at standards and instructors is going to help anything change.

R..

I'm not exactly out of the game but I will be spending more time on the bench. I am cynical though. The sniping is supposed to do is get people thinking about some of this stuff. I can't afford a bill board. LOL. I'm not sure any more that the intent of the standards is so above reproach. All the loop holes that let instructors take shortcuts without violating standards might just be there for a reason.

 

[Wijbrandus]

I certified this fall in OW. I have yet to do any diving since then, simply because of my location and I don't have all the equipment I need/want yet. I'm leaving in a few days to do the "Underwater Tourist" thing, as it's my only opportunity to gain any experience and therefore practice my skills.

Those of you who seem to be rather down on PADI, it might interest you to know that my dive instructor really did emphasize the buddy thing. For one, he made it a cardinal rule that we had to manage our location in relation to our buddy. If at any time my buddy and I could not reach out and grab each other's hand, we were too far apart and had to buy the drinks at the next surface interval. That's only one example, but it taught me that my buddy needs to be close to do me any good.

Yes, my bouyancy sucks. I have absolutely no idea how much weight I need (I certified in cold water, and I'm going to warm). I suck air down like a hoover. I still am paranoid about reading my RDP wrong, even though I scored 98% on the test. I am, however, very comfortable in the water and really enjoy diving.

I am very aware of personal responsibility. I took a rafting trip once that could have killed me because the guide let go of the rope he was using to pull me in with. The first rule of rescue is don't become a victim as well. I instead exercised a little self-rescue, and came out shaken like a martini, battered but alive.

Give the new guys a break. You all were here once too. The only way I'm going to get to what you consider a respectable skill level is by going through all the mistakes you list, and learning from them.

Hopefully I'll do all that without dying in the process.

 

[ygthad]

DORSETBOY once bubbled...
Sorry, I know all deaths are ALWAYS unfortunate whatever the sport or activity. Diving has inherent risks associated with it whether you are an instructor or a new diver. If you want to dive you need to accept that, but at the same time we all have responsibilities for ourselves and eachother and have to look at the way we plan and execute our dives... emphasis perhaps on the planning more.

(This is in no way intended to be a criticism of anyone involved in any of the accidents).

When I first started Diving I was told . it was an easy sport to learn But one of the most dangerous to do.. I feel you should always try to keep learning. We do have to be careful.. and at the same time enjoy the sport..

 

[MikeFerrara]

Wijbrandus once bubbled...

Give the new guys a break. You all were here once too. The only way I'm going to get to what you consider a respectable skill level is by going through all the mistakes you list, and learning from them.

Hopefully I'll do all that without dying in the process.

I don't think any of this is meant to pick on new divers. Every one understands you have to start some place. I do sometimes express my displeasure with the start new divers sometimes get.

 

[IndigoBlue]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...



First off, I don't know if we can show that being alone caused the injury or death but I do know that in most fatalities and injuries I've seen and read about the diver was alone in the final moments.

So...
Lets jump on by trying to relate it directly to training standards ok?

While we talk about diving with a buddy in entry level training do we actually teach it? I say NO becausee there aren't any in-water performance requirements to measure ones skill as a buddy in most classes. In most OW classes that I see, the students just follow the instructor around (and the dives are rather short at that). So are the students ever asked to demonstrate that they can be a buddy? I say No. Did they ever practice it? I say no? We tell them it's important but then we certify them without ever letting them try it even once.

Do we further develop these skills in AOW, rescue or even DM or instructor training? I'll say no again for the same reasons. If you disagree, just show me the specific performance requirements.

Being alone probably does not itself cause accidents or death. But being alone is probably a major reason why accidents lead to death.

Being with a reliable buddy on scuba could probably prevent almost all deaths on scuba, which is not to say that being alone on scuba causes accidents, rather that being with a good buddy would likely prevent any scuba accident from becoming a fatality.

When I teach my new basic O/W students tonight, for their first classroom session, I will certainly be emphasizing buddy diving. It's part of the agency standards, and its a good idea as well.

 

[Charlie99]

IndigoBlue once bubbled...
Being with a reliable buddy on scuba could probably prevent almost all deaths on scuba, which is not to say that being alone on scuba causes accidents, rather that being with a good buddy would likely prevent any scuba accident from becoming a fatality.

Buddies aren't usually successful in saving a diver that has a heart attack or other major medical crisis underwater.

A good buddy can help with a lot of problems, particularly with equipment malfunctions, but there are a lot of divers out there that are only minimally aware of their buddies. It doesn't take much to break up those teams.