What's the best hand held light available - need opinions.

[Deep South Divers]

Of course a D cell will last longer than an AAA cell. Carrying a car battery will last even longer. Two AA cells will last just as long a one C cell.

Yes, but at only half the voltage, which typically results in lower light output... So the idea is to achieve a happy medium... And in my opinion (yours may be different), AAs and AAAs spend too quickly. The result is that with AA and AAA-equipped lights, they don't stay fresh very long, aren't powerful or aren't working at all when I need them, or require new batteries too often. Since breaking the seal of a light, opening it up, cleaning it out, putting new batteries in, relubing the O-rings and putting the system back together again is a pain in the neck (with lots of possibility of screwing something up), I prefer the longer-lived "C" and "D" cells.

Why someone would want the AA and AAA sizes, I think, only comes down to budget... The physical size difference between lights equipped with "C" batteries and "AA" batteries is negligible and pointless.

Led's vf are in the range of 3.2V to 3.6V generally and although in some cases they can be direct driven in many cases a driver is involved to allow them to match the voltage of the battery. That way you can match any battery and no led can be overdriven past a certain point any way...poof.

Okay...

I think you're agreeing that voltage-matching is a positive thing. It stands to reason, then, that lights with overdriven LEDs are a negative thing... Even though an overdriven LED may shine brilliantly in the dive shop.

Perhaps you're trying to state that there is a voltage regulator in some of these lights that prevent overdriving of the LEDs. Sure... That's great... But many cheaper lights DO overdrive the LEDs without any sort of voltage regulator.

Why not just match voltage with the proper LED to begin with? Why does this have to be so difficult?

Of course, that only works up to a point. If you want a light that is much brighter that's not going to work. More heat will be generated and it has no where to go once it gets to the heatsink in a Delrin body.

Interesting theory.

Have you actually personally seen a Heser Backup lit? It's brighter than my Halcyon 10w HID. And yeah, it'll run that way for many hours on a couple of "C" cells.

...And do it without overdriving the LED. And yeah, it's got a delrin body with the heat sink inside the delrin.

You sound like one of those "Fast and Furious" guys who say things like, "Yeah, but look at the size of this exhaust... It REALLY flows! It's now faster than that Corvette we were talkin' about..."

I've seen the "proper way" and mount my lights that way as well. It would be possible to do that with a magnetic button mount as well.

Care to post photos? I'm interested.

There are buttons that do rely on generating a rapid pulse (piezo) for instance. Period. By the way, I'm not a fan of buttons.

Right, yes, I'm aware. The question is... Why? Why all of these electronic, "new" solutions for a problem that didn't exist in the first place?

I'm not a big fan of twisting light heads either. Some do leak right away and some do leak eventually.

Really? Which ones?

Of the dozens that my company has or has had, I've never once seen one leak. That's because the motion of the twist tends to work with the O-rings instead of against them.

It's funny... It's like you're starting to make up the problem, just so that you can have a place for your "button" solution to be.

Have you ever owned a twist-on light that leaked? Which brand? It wasn't one of those Chinese ones listed above, was it?

Everything can leak.

Well, sure... And even nuclear submarines are only waterproof to a certain depth.

...But you're really starting to stretch things out here, in defense of a system that you plainly said above you're not a fan of. Did you just want to argue or something?

I have one that hasn't leaked and it's a good backup light

Ho, hey... THERE'S the problem! You have one that hasn't leaked, and it's a good backup light... So let's change it and apply a solution to something that's not a problem!

What gives?

...but I still don't think a twisting head is the best way to go. Even twisting tail cap is better in my opinion but that's neither here nor there. Twisting does work in many cases that's very true.

Sounds like you need to go get some more diving in, my friend. This is waaay too important to you for no apparent reason.

Why use them on your scooter and not on your light? A failure is a failure. A proper design is the solution.

I don't "use them on my scooter." That's how scooters capable of going beyond 130 feet are designed. If you want to figure out a better way, then there is a problem for you to solve... Make a deep scooter without a reed switch that doesn't flood.

Maybe you can put a button on it.

I feel quite certain that Ronald Regan personally hadn't a clue regarding the internet other than knowing that it existed.

My bet is that he's simply say, "I don't recollect..." just like he always did. But hey, if you want to argue about something, then you're welcome to.

Here, I'll give you a topic: Why do people park on driveways and drive on parkways? Discuss.

I'm not implying that you're out of touch. You commented that C and D cells had higher voltages than AA and AAA. That was not correct.

Nope, they're all the same. In rereading my post regarding that, I can see how I came across as implying that.

Typically, when a light is equipped with AA or AAA batteries, they simply stuff more of them in there. For example, a Heser Backup or Photon Torpedo or Halcyon Scout has 3 "C" cells in it. A similar-sized Ikelight (common) light may have 4-8 AAA cells in it - more voltage, but doesn't last as long.

...Which is the common thought with light manufacturers - bright, overdriven lights that eat batteries and don't last very long. THAT is what I was referring to, I just never got around to mentioning it - too many other arguments to point out!

You are talking about powerful lights that last 60 hours. Either your concept of powerful is outdated or you're wrong about 60 hours.

Negative on either. I've been doing this a long time, my friend, and I've seen quite a bit in terms of light solutions.

Check this out to get an idea of burn times expected from Heser Backups: Heser backup light burntime? - DIR Explorers

...And interestingly, if you look for performance specs (which seem to be all over the map), I think you'll find that your Intovas and the Hesers and the Torpedos all are nearly identical. Could it be that the LEDs inside are all the same?

They light that you're talking about is a fine backup light. The batteries and the particular led that it uses are nothing special in terms of efficiency and last no longer than any other such combination.

Dunno, my man... All I know is that I don't have to change batteries for months... And they fire every day, religiously.

You might want to look at the Chinese light I'm recommending before you actually comment since your comments are not accurate at all.

I own one, so I know from personal experience. Bought it about two years ago... It didn't last very long.

...So yeah, my comments are probably inaccuate. And you probably know exactly what you're talking about, since you own both a Heser and a Chinese knockoff, so that you, too, can compare from a position of experience, right?

The light is not overdriven. It and most other lights are driven to spec.

Wrong. Buy one, open it up and look for yourself.

Some are driven to the upper end of spec if they have the battery power and heat sinking necessary which is most cases is a larger light. Others are under driven to reduce heat generation and to match either smaller batteries or smaller lights/heat sinks.

Not listening until you buy one and look for yourself. Then buy an Intova, a Heser, and a Torpedo, and compare them yourself.

I have - along with dozens of other lights. That's what happens when you're "outdated like me" - you've already owned them.

Any led driven anywhere within the specs will last longer than you will use the light. Most people don't need a backup light to run for more than 10-12 hours. It's a backup.

...But see, that's where your lack of experience shows.

It's not a matter of needing to have the light run nonstop for 50 hours or whatever... It's a matter of not having to change the batteries every time you get out of the water.

It's incorrect to say that a Heser produces a light that is whiter or brighter than a Chinese light. The led's are the same.

*sigh* Negative. Different brand, different technology. I know, I have them both. Where are you getting these ideas?

Regarding Delrin vs PVC. The light I'm referring to is made of Delrin or some such material and have two o-rings at the twist head, two and two or three at the press fit lens and are built like a tank. You seem to think that a led must be overdriven if it can produce 170 lumen initially on a fresh set of batteries.

The one that you pictured above, right? It's PVC (not "some such material") and the plastic lens on the front of the light is glued in place. Yeah, it twists on, and yeah, it's got two O-rings... But that's like saying that the Civic's got four tires and five windows, so it's just like a Corvette.

It's like you're pointing at one of the SeaDoo underwater scooter knockoffs on eBay for $200 and saying that it's exactly like a Gavin or SS because they're both 24v systems. Dude, there's a huge difference. If you buy them both, you'll see.

If it's a newer led it can produce more. If it's been around for a while it can produce 170 easily. If it's being direct driven and has no constant current regulation it will have a very long run time at gradually decreasing brightness.

Lol... Dunno, man... You're welcome to come over to our shop and compare any light you like...

It's like arguing with a wall.

 

[gcbryan]

The one that you pictured above, right? It's PVC (not "some such material") and the plastic lens on the front of the light is glued in place. Yeah, it twists on, and yeah, it's got two O-rings...

You're simply wrong. The light pictured, which I have, is not PVC and does have a (6mm) glass lens which is not glued in.

It's like arguing with a wall.

On that we can agree.

 

[DiveGear4Less]

Yes they do but no they're not.

A 10 W HID outputs around 450 lumen and has a focused center or hotspot of around 6 degrees usually. The Intova's may in some cases have a relatively bright hot spot in some cases but they don't put out the same overall amount of lumen that a 10 W HID does.

Manufacturer lumen ratings mean nothing. I've seen a 100 lumen rated light outshine a 180 lumen rate light. I also know of a 21 watt HID that outshines 35 watt HIDs. Put some of the current handheld LEDs up against the 10 watt HIDs in a cave and it's easy to see they are comparable.

 

[gcbryan]

Manufacturer lumen ratings mean nothing. I've seen a 100 lumen rated light outshine a 180 lumen rate light. I also know of a 21 watt HID that outshines 35 watt HIDs. Put some of the current handheld LEDs up against the 10 watt HIDs in a cave and it's easy to see they are comparable.

The emitter (led) manufacturer ratings mean something but the dive light manufacturers ratings are often not accurate...they sometimes just quote the emitter ratings which are the highest possible rating for that emitter in a lab under controlled circumstances and without taking into account driver and reflector/optic inefficiencies.

It also depends on how the dive light manufacturer uses a possible 180 lumen emitter. If they choose long run time rather than brightness they simply don't drive it to 180 lumen. In some cases they still claim 180 lumen.

The other factor when comparing 10W HID with hand held led is perception. I have a hand held led which is comparable to my 10 W HID but the led is rated at 700 lumen and probably really puts out 500 or so but is still comparable.

If one has a 180 lumen that is tightly focused and uses it in a cave and compares it to a 10 W HID that has a hot spot that is similar but also perhaps a bit wider or has a bit more spread them they seem the same and may function as well for that purpose. The lumen may be greater from the HID but the brightness of the hotspot may be no more than the led.

In many cases it's comparing apples to oranges however. The lux reading in the hotspot is what people frequently consider and that can be the same even when the lumen outputs are quite a bit different. A 180 lumen led isn't comparable to a 450 lumen HID in that sense. The 450 lumen from the HID is more than a 180 lumen led in terms of overall output but for a particular application that may not matter. If the hotspot from each light is comparable that may be all that matters.

 

[Deep South Divers]

The emitter (led) manufacturer ratings mean something but the dive light manufacturers ratings are often not accurate...

(snip)

they sometimes just quote the emitter ratings which are the highest possible rating for that emitter in a lab under controlled circumstances and without taking into account driver and reflector/optic inefficiencies.

(snip)

It also depends on how the dive light manufacturer uses a possible 180 lumen emitter. If they choose long run time rather than brightness they simply don't drive it to 180 lumen. In some cases they still claim 180 lumen.

(snip)

The other factor when comparing 10W HID with hand held led is perception. I have a hand held led which is comparable to my 10 W HID but the led is rated at 700 lumen and probably really puts out 500 or so but is still comparable.

(snip)

If one has a 180 lumen that is tightly focused and uses it in a cave and compares it to a 10 W HID that has a hot spot that is similar but also perhaps a bit wider or has a bit more spread them they seem the same and may function as well for that purpose. The lumen may be greater from the HID but the brightness of the hotspot may be no more than the led.

(snip)

In many cases it's comparing apples to oranges however. The lux reading in the hotspot is what people frequently consider and that can be the same even when the lumen outputs are quite a bit different. A 180 lumen led isn't comparable to a 450 lumen HID in that sense. The 450 lumen from the HID is more than a 180 lumen led in terms of overall output but for a particular application that may not matter. If the hotspot from each light is comparable that may be all that matters.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

...Which is why your best bet is to purchase the lights and compare them yourself - or find someone that has them and compare them. Here, personal experience with the lights far exceeds any ratings that you can find on them.

...And when you do have them in your hand and use them yourself, you'll probably find that your favorite light isn't the one that looks coolest or is smallest or even the one that has the brightest spot... It's the one that fires every time you use it. It's the one that runs ALL the time. It's the one that you use to illuminate the one that's not working, as you attempt to diagnose the complex button or attachment point or "mode" switch or whatever on the light that's not working.

Your favorite light will be the one that someone left on all night, and it still runs well enough to signal to your buddy. It's the one that you dropped out of the back of the truck and it got run over by the car behind you... And it's no worse for the wear. It's the one that only needs battery changes once a year.

Of course, there's a lot to be said in terms of light color, light output, the focusability of the beam, and that sort of thing... But it's more like a "threshold" thing... If they all put out very similar beams and colors and outputs (most LEDs do today - and have, for the past few years), then what you're going to use is more related to which light you know is going to work when you reach for it.

...Which, again, is the reason why to avoid buttons and cheap plastic or aluminum housings and glued or pressed seams in favor of one-piece bodies carved from a single, solid rod of delrin and topped with a solid acrylic head that twists on... With no seams and a stainless steel bolt snap that allows you to mount the light on a strap so it "disappears" when you don't need it.

...But when you do, it's there. And you know for sure it's going to work.

...Why anyone would want anything else in a light is beyond me.

 

[Hatul]

There is no such thing as best.

Aside from the other factors mentioned, personally I like rechargeable batteries. Just charge before diving and you know you've got full power for the whole dive.

My first choice is AA as I always have plenty of these charged, and can take alkaline as well. Second choice is the lithium-ion 18650. Third choice is AAA as in the Dorcy. And I'll pass on the CR123 batteries.

Adam

 

[lsorenson]

I couldn't have said it better myself.

...Which is why your best bet is to purchase the lights and compare them yourself - or find someone that has them and compare them. Here, personal experience with the lights far exceeds any ratings that you can find on them.

...And when you do have them in your hand and use them yourself, you'll probably find that your favorite light isn't the one that looks coolest or is smallest or even the one that has the brightest spot... It's the one that fires every time you use it. It's the one that runs ALL the time. It's the one that you use to illuminate the one that's not working, as you attempt to diagnose the complex button or attachment point or "mode" switch or whatever on the light that's not working.

Your favorite light will be the one that someone left on all night, and it still runs well enough to signal to your buddy. It's the one that you dropped out of the back of the truck and it got run over by the car behind you... And it's no worse for the wear. It's the one that only needs battery changes once a year.

Of course, there's a lot to be said in terms of light color, light output, the focusability of the beam, and that sort of thing... But it's more like a "threshold" thing... If they all put out very similar beams and colors and outputs (most LEDs do today - and have, for the past few years), then what you're going to use is more related to which light you know is going to work when you reach for it.

...Which, again, is the reason why to avoid buttons and cheap plastic or aluminum housings and glued or pressed seams in favor of one-piece bodies carved from a single, solid rod of delrin and topped with a solid acrylic head that twists on... With no seams and a stainless steel bolt snap that allows you to mount the light on a strap so it "disappears" when you don't need it.

...But when you do, it's there. And you know for sure it's going to work.

...Why anyone would want anything else in a light is beyond me.

DSD,

Very... VERY... well said...! I am glad you stuck with this thread!!! I have to say that I was getting a bit of a headache but... I truly believe this quote was the payoff!

Many thanks,

lee

 

[D_B]

I don't know what "Chinese" light with a glued in plastic lens is being referenced to, but I'm looking at the W200 light pictured before in my hand and It has an O ringed removable glass lens & 3 O ring sealed head .. http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/at...-light-available-need-opinions-e13829_lrg.jpg

Maybe Packhorse mods it that way, but I can see the same O ring and lens in that picture

 

[gcbryan]

I don't know what "Chinese" light with a glued in plastic lens is being referenced to, but I'm looking at the W200 light pictured before in my hand and It has an O ringed removable glass lens & 3 O ring sealed head .. http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/at...-light-available-need-opinions-e13829_lrg.jpg

Maybe Packhorse mods it that way, but I can see the same O ring and lens in that picture

It comes that way. That's why Parkhorse uses that light as a host to mod...it's a robust light!

He replaces the reflector with an optic for more throw and no spill, replaces the emitter with a slightly higher bin, and does a mod to allow the batteries to be rechargeable li-ion rather than AAA. Or at least that's one of his mod's. Another version is to put a MC-E in I think.

Good light made better depending on your needs!

 

[Deep South Divers]

He replaces the reflector with an optic for more throw and no spill, replaces the emitter with a slightly higher bin, and does a mod to allow the batteries to be rechargeable li-ion rather than AAA. Or at least that's one of his mod's. Another version is to put a MC-E in I think.

Good light made better depending on your needs!

That, then, proves that the LEDs are not the same, if your buddy is "replacing the emiter with a slightly higher bin."

On the lights I mentioned, the LED, reflector and optic are one, solid-state and sealed unit capable of withstanding a flood. There are no separate parts to modify... And no need for modification. The light quality is impressive regardless of whether you consider color, brightness, or focus.

Any light can have it's AA, AAA, C, or D cells replaced with rechargables - Li-Ion or alkaline (or even Ni-Cad). I don't recommend that because rechargable batteries tend to not last as long as disposables, and when they die, they die abruptly and without warning. Disposables, on the other hand, tend to "taper off," so they are predictable and never totally leave you without a functioning light. Disposables also have the advantage that, if left alone for a long time, they still work. I've never seen a rechargable battery have a "no-fire shelf life" as long as a common disposable.

These are the things that make a light bulletproof and reliable, and working when you need it to work. Switch to rechargables and do modifications to the light, and not only have you spent more money and time working on the light, but it's reliability decreases.

The light that I had that looked exactly like the one pictured cost me about $40 to my door and was made of thin, brittle PVC and had a plastic lens press-fitted and glued to the top of the light. I purchased it about two years ago. If I still had it, I'd take a picture and show you, but it was broken when a tank rolled over it on the deck of one of my boats during an offshore rescue.

I recognize the body - it had a very distinct pattern on it.

Historically speaking, O-ringed glass lenses on light heads have been problematic and are the first place a leak occurs... Which is why pricier lights use solid acrylic heads and solid delrin bodies. On the lights I mention, the only place that water could enter is where the body meets the head, and that joint is designed with two substantial O-rings that become progressively tighter with increased pressure - not the opposite. Any sliding action necessary to activate the switch happens in a circular motion around the O-ring so as to not create stress and actually improve the seal.

I think it's fascinating, your mental lock on this light... And I think it's pretty cool that you've found something that you like and want to mess with and "modify." I still can't understand why you wouldn't simply spend the money and get a better quality, longer-lasting, more dependable light. I seriously considered asking you what light you used while modifying this one... But I'll refrain.