Whats after master diver?

[MXGratefulDiver]

That may be true but I'll turn that last statement back around on you. Taking DIR classes early on will also preclude exposure to some avenues of diving. There too, "you don't know what you don't know". You'll never catch the love of vintage equipment diving from that agency or minimalist diving or find much support for RB or OW SM diving, some forms of science based diving or photography. You will also find some types of diving minimalized by that community while other forms will be maximized. Great if that turns out to be what you want but I suspect there are some people doing dives within that group because that is what everybody else is doing instead of it truly being what they want to do.

I appreciate those agencies for what they are and what they have to offer but they are not the be all, end all of diving and they really aren't for everybody, all the time. Divers can be exposed to, or learn, good basic dives skills in many other setting.

I've known lots of people who took the Fundamentals class and yet later on chose not to stay within the limitations of the DIR way of diving. I'm one of them, having decided to pursue solo diving, and in the near future also pursue both sidemount and CCR. I can think of several others who have made similar decisions.

One thing DIR trains you to do is think about not just how you dive, but why you choose to dive that way. Ironically, in my case, that approach led me to a decision that the DIR system didn't fit my goals ... despite the fact that I benefitted a great deal from having learned it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DaleC]

And to take a little issue with your assumption. When one takes Fundies that doesn't preclude him or her from diving other ways. DIR/GUE teaches ways to manage inherent dangers in diving using equipment and technique. They also teach that SCUBA diving is fun!

It would appear that you are suggesting that one who takes a GUE course is now locked in to a lifestyle, and will no longer be able to appreciate other aspects of diving.

Yes I am suggesting that, or you are violating your training and need to go outside it. Just go to the technical sub forums and see the degree of debate that is generated due to interagency approaches to diving. And don't smoke or use non standardized gasses while you're at it!

Of course I am being facetious but there is a grain of truth in it also.

Let's say you just start diving and get hooked into taking the DIR pathway because it's what the "real divers" are doing. You are now on a technically oriented road no matter how they try to dress it up. What if it turns out you are really interested in shallow water flora and fauna study/photography. Unless you find a similarly oriented diver within that group you will basically be hanging with people who talk/goalset/train to dive deeper, longer and/or who view shallow dives as "training opportunities". Instead of shooting macro shots (which is what you love to do) you will wind up shooting bags and talking about accelerated decompression during the SI. I know someone here will say they also love shallow water dives but the truth is, few people are paying thousands and thousands of dollars on training and gear to expressly dive those profiles.

Let's say instead, that same diver becomes intrigued by vintage equipment diving and voices that at the weekly DIR get together. How much support and encouragement would they recieve from within that group? How would DIR training benefit them in that case?

What if you want to take up OW SM or some other form of non standardized gear configuration?

Soloing?


If you have to go outside your training agency to pursue your passion then why are you there in the first place? If you are new to diving you may not know what your passion is and that is why I would hesitate to suggest a comprehensive training pathway with a definate end point that precludes exposure to other forms of diving. Yes improved basic skills are always important but, as I said before, I don't think those agencies are the only place one can acheive them. If I'm wrong about that then all the non GUE/UTD instructors on the board here need to check into crossing over.

And I've never gotten the notion that teaching SCUBA "is fun" is a selling point - does one need an agency to know this? I'm not 5 years old and looking for a pony.



Bob, speak of the devil! I hear what you are saying (Trace for one comes to mind) and of course agree with you. I'm just trying to point out that DIR shouldn't neccisarily be tossed out as the next great panacea whenever a diver looks for the next thing to do. It's an unpopular POV at this moment in time but... somebodies got to express it I don't think the DIR movement is in any long term danger from my peanut gallery admonitions to look before one leaps and choose the training that helps one to achieve their goals.

 

[Blackwood]

That may be true but I'll turn that last statement back around on you. Taking DIR classes early on will also preclude exposure to some avenues of diving.

Given what you meant ("or you are violating your training and need to go outside it"), how is that unique to DIR training?

Does undergoing PADI open water training preclude hogarthian diving since the former calls for a snorkel while the latter does the opposite? No.

Training has certain standards and procedures, and for non-professionals and those not currently in courses, following them is elective.

Let's say you just start diving and get hooked into taking the DIR pathway because it's what the "real divers" are doing. You are now on a technically oriented road no matter how they try to dress it up. What if it turns out you are really interested in shallow water flora and fauna study/photography. Unless you find a similarly oriented diver within that group you will basically be hanging with people who talk/goalset/train to dive deeper, longer and/or who view shallow dives as "training opportunities". Instead of shooting macro shots (which is what you love to do) you will wind up shooting bags and talking about accelerated decompression during the SI. I know someone here will say they also love shallow water dives but the truth is, few people are paying thousands and thousands of dollars on training and gear to expressly dive those profiles.

I hear what you're saying, but it seems like you're responding to something that hasn't been done. No one is telling a would-be shallow macro photographer to take GUE RB80 Cave. They're suggesting that someone who has expressed interest in deep diving take a course that has been designed to cultivate the skills and teamwork the agency believes are requisite for, amongst other things, deep diving.



I have undergone training DIR and non-DIR agencies. I don't feel at all pigeon holed by either.

 

[DaleC]

You are correct sir!

I think I violated my PADI training immediately afterwards. The financial cost was less painful though and I didn't buy into many of their proticols anyways.

The good thing about GUE/UTD is that they seem to have a pretty well defined post course support/social group. My agency did not and that was probably one reason why it was so easy for me to be exposed to different forms of diving (which worked out in my case). If you are taught from the beginning to dive with other divers of similar training/gear configuration it's pretty hard to become exposed to other systems in a positive light. Mostly they are held up as "precautionary tales" or examples of why "your" system is better.

If one is honest one will admit that most DIR groups don't sit around singing the praises of other systems.

I don't think you are pigeonholed but I also think you are an experienced diver who knows what he wants out of diving.

I'm not arguing for/against any specific form of training. I'm just suggesting that a diver take some time to determine what they want to do before jumping into more and more training.

Training should suppliment diving, not become the focal point.

 

[Randy43068]

DaleC, you're still assuming that GUE is some sort of exclusive club. Sure there are adherents who treat it as if it's religion, but I'd say that's a subset of those who have taken the training.

The skills taught in a Fundies class make one a much better diver even if the diver chooses not to use ALL of what he or she has learned.

You seem to be suggesting that taking a GUE course will ruin someones fun. That's nonsense.

To be honest, there are are a lot of practices and habits that a diver would be better off not learning in the first place. If taking a Fundies class prevents those bad diving habits (poor skill) from being introduced in the first place, then it's win-win, I see no down side. What one learns in a GUE Fundamentals course will only make one a better diver.

For example, if one learned the frog kick as a primary kick from the get-go, I can't see that as a bad thing.

DaleC, please don't let the hype and Internet noise keep you from seeing the value in what's being taught in a Fundies ( or other GUE ) courses.

As a side note, I see DIR being bashed often, and never is it bashed on the skills being taught, but always on the noise and other nonsense surrounding the few who are GUE cultists.

I too, don't what this thread to denenigrate into a "who's better" argument.

 

[DaleC]

DaleC, you're still assuming that GUE is some sort of exclusive club. Sure there are adherents who treat it as if it's religion, but I'd say that's a subset of those who have taken the training.

The skills taught in a Fundies class make one a much better diver even if the diver chooses not to use ALL of what he or she has learned.

You seem to be suggesting that taking a GUE course will ruin someones fun. That's nonsense.

To be honest, there are are a lot of practices and habits that a diver would be better off not learning in the first place. If taking a Fundies class prevents those bad diving habits (poor skill) from being introduced in the first place, then it's win-win, I see no down side. What one learns in a GUE Fundamentals course will only make one a better diver.

For example, if one learned the frog kick as a primary kick from the get-go, I can't see that as a bad thing.

DaleC, please don't let the hype and Internet noise keep you from seeing the value in what's being taught in a Fundies ( or other GUE ) courses.

As a side note, I see DIR being bashed often, and never is it bashed on the skills being taught, but always on the noise and other nonsense surrounding the few who are GUE cultists.

I too, don't what this thread to denenigrate into a "who's better" argument.

I'm not assuming anything - that's my point. The people who suggest the diver (who already is trained to rescuer level) should turn around and take another agencies entry level course because he couldn't possibly learn basic dive skills any other way are though. As is the notion that other instructors from other agencies will teach "bad habits" that need future unlearning. As is the notion that fundies or essentials will address every possible training need the OP might have at this point.

I'm also not swayed by internet hype, in fact that's what I'm arguing against here. I don't see myself bashing agencies as much as trying to take a balanced approach to dive training, matching the nature and timing to the divers needs. Of course, if people see their agency as the right answer to any problem no matter what I can see how that idea might seem like bashing.

I also never suggested GUE would "ruin" somebodies fun. Indicate the source please.

It's funny how one doesn't want to see bashing but wants to put one agency in an exhalted position above all other forms of training. I guess I could afford to be magnanimous in that position too.

 

[TSandM]

Dale, if you can think of a really good place to send a random diver from Anywhere, USA, to learn to balance their gear, dive in trim, and to learn better situational awareness and non-silting propulsion techniques, please tell me what it is. If you will note, my post said dive with DIR or CAVE TRAINED people, because those are the places I know someone will learn those skills.

And, contrary to popular belief, DIR diving is not a cult, and you don't have to sign away your first-born to do the classes . . . It is quite possible to take Fundamentals and go off and do something totally different. Rick Inman, here on the board, went on to do technical training through CCR, and never took another GUE class. Yet he has written many times that doing Fundies was, in both his opinion and that of his tech instructor, the best basic training he could have done.

I have two wonderful friends in Southern California who did Fundies (and Rec Triox, I believe). They have taken the skills they learned and become incredible reef divers, with an almost unvarying goal of finding critters (many of them very small) and taking stunning photographs.

Yes, if you like what you find in a Fundamentals class, and you begin to dive with GUE-trained divers, you won't be "encouraged" to do vintage diving. But if you run into somebody who dives that way and you want to try it, nobody will crucify you, either. I have played with a double hose regulator. I have monkey dived. I've dived solo (not very much, but a little). If your curiosity takes you other places, you will go there. If you like what you found and you want to stay there, you'll do that.

Not everybody who takes Fundies goes on to technical or cave diving, either. But I would imagine a much higher percentage of people who take Fundies do go on, than people who take all their training through PADI or NAUI or SSI. I think there are probably two things operating there -- one is that the choice to do Fundies in the first place may be based on a desire to do deeper or overhead dives. The other is that the GUE system, by "beginning with the end in mind", makes it extremely EASY to go on. There is no bright line dividing recreational DIR diving from technical DIR diving -- just a little equipment adjustment, a few new skills and a little bookwork, and you're good to go . . . and people do. I had no idea I would become a cave diver, when I took Fundies. But they made it so EASY.

Anyway, DIR isn't for everybody, and there's a lot of diving out there to be done in a wide variety of styles and with a wide variety of equipment. But good buoyancy control, good buddy skills, a toolkit of kicks, and well practiced safety procedures is not a bad thing for any diver, I think.

 

[Narced Out]

So after reading all of your guys debates here...not to spark anything, seems like im being pushed to go with fundamentals to get better with my trim and buoyancy. Im already working on that with my buddy. If only my dam mask would stop leaking Ill talk with my instructor and see what i can do to get into basic tech diving at this age. I dont have a great deal of time before i join the Army so i will be gone all next summer at bootcamp, now is my time to get my dive experience in.

When i get back i will be older and hopefully i can get into something more advanced. Rebreathers sounds interesting to me

 

[DaleC]

Lynne, why do you assume that someone at the rescuer level of another agency would need to learn to "balance their gear, dive in trim, and to learn better situational awareness and non-silting propulsion techniques"? For all the anti bashing comments here I am surprised that the belief by some is that all other agency training is somehow deficient and every diver should begin again through GUE/UTD.

I don't deny that all the good things said about GUE/UTD are true but I still can't bring myself to automatically default to parroting "fundies/essentials" whenever a training question is asked on the board. It would be easier, and I would be more popular with the cool kids, but I still retain that irritating habit of trying to match my response to the actual situation at hand.
In this case it is:

1.) Dive till you figure out what you want to do in diving
2.) Do that till you are limited by your training
3.) When that happens, get the training you need
... and take HS science courses.

Call me crazy.

And BTW, who brought up "Cults" anyways. Seems, no matter how clear I try to type, and how balanced I try to present my opinions, I can't help but be tarred with someone elses preconceptions. If some of those posting would read what I actually wrote they would see no challenge to any of the core values of DIR diving.

 

[DaleC]

So after reading all of your guys debates here...not to spark anything, seems like im being pushed to go with fundamentals to get better with my trim and buoyancy. Im already working on that with my buddy. If only my dam mask would stop leaking Ill talk with my instructor and see what i can do to get into basic tech diving at this age. I dont have a great deal of time before i join the Army so i will be gone all next summer at bootcamp, now is my time to get my dive experience in.

When i get back i will be older and hopefully i can get into something more advanced. Rebreathers sounds interesting to me

Don't worry about the debate, that's how ideas get expressed (sometimes messily). The most important thing is not learning what to think but rather, how to think. Sift through it all and find something that resonates with you and ask questions.

I find my masks tend to leak and I have about two out of 10 that give me a good seal. It turns out I have facial creases that run from the side of my nose to the corner of my mouth that open up when I squint (which I do a lot). Try shaving (if facial hair is an issue) and test driving a lot of different masks when ever possible. Different models fit different faces.