Whatever happened with the abused Stingrays?

[don Francisco]

You make a point

But the truth is its still a shame that to rase awareness and generate interest, marine mamals (dolphins, whales, for example) are forced to proform stupid "tricks" for the amusement of people.

Your point is valid; the flip side - that many people come away from these shows thinking that "all's well" and don't elevate their thinking to a higher purpose - is equally valid.

I agree. I just think that it's pointless to gripe about these operations, since that won't change anything.

It might be more useful to engage them in a dialog and see if they could be convinced to include a bit of education along with the fun experience so that their clients leave with heightened awareness about the oceans. Whatever we may think about animals in captivity, we're better off if we try to capitalize on the opportunity these operations may present, rather than grumble about them amongst ourselves.

 

[jjwdiver]

Destroy the fence and let them out.

Reminds me of when the PITA people broke into a place in my town that raised mink. They let them all out of their enclosures.

Since they were raised there....the critters all ran into the road where they were run over by cars. Other scattered to the nearby field where the hawks go them. Others just stood there with no idea of what to do.

They meant well, but didnt think of the consequences. I called it "pulling a Les Nessman"

 

[cdreamer]

I don't think we have to worry about stingrays running out in
the road or taken by hawks. I think if they want to keep them
enclosed for the pod people, then they should leave the barbs on.

 

[1KWIK_69]

Reminds me of when the PITA people broke into a place in my town that raised mink. They let them all out of their enclosures.

Since they were raised there....the critters all ran into the road where they were run over by cars. Other scattered to the nearby field where the hawks go them. Others just stood there with no idea of what to do.

They meant well, but didnt think of the consequences. I called it "pulling a Les Nessman"

I'm not a big fan of the tree hugger crowd and I'm all in favor of responsible use of nature. I just see a big difference between raising animals from birth for a purpose and catching fully grown animals out of their natural habitat and sticking them in a small cage for people to gawk at. If they want to raise stingrays from birth in captivity, I have no problem with it. Then it's just like keeping fish in an aquarium as far as I'm concerned.

They want to make this attraction like what they have in Grand Cayman except those stingrays aren't captive. They gather on that shallow sand because they've gone there by choice their whole lives so they can eat all the left overs from fishermen cleaning their catches there. They haven't had their barbs cut off and they're free to come and go when they want. What their doing in Cozumel isn't any different than de-clawing a tiger and putting a muzzel on it so tourists can go play with and torment them. It's cruel. There are plenty of stingrays all over the reefs of Cozumel. If people really want to see them, they should take up diving, or if not that, there are always those catamarans that take giant hurds of snorklers out wearing those really cool orange life jackets.

 

[jjwdiver]

I just see a big difference between raising animals from birth for a purpose and catching fully grown animals out of their natural habitat and sticking them in a small cage for people to gawk at.

Do you really think THAT was my point?

 

[Jupiter31]

I agree. I just think that it's pointless to gripe about these operations, since that won't change anything.

It might be more useful to engage them in a dialog and see if they could be convinced to include a bit of education along with the fun experience so that their clients leave with heightened awareness about the oceans. Whatever we may think about animals in captivity, we're better off if we try to capitalize on the opportunity these operations may present, rather than grumble about them amongst ourselves.

True....

However - despite all the BS put out by these places, how wonderful the care is, they have a vet available 24 hours a day, bla bla bla, even if true the largest pool/enclosure is a speck compared to the ocean - the greatest care, feed, excetra, is still cruel given the size of their habitat.

Educate people, sure, and a rational person would come to the conclusion that dolphin shows, on so many levels, are just wrong. If they did "education", it would lead to that conclusion. That's why its easier to have them play basketball and jump through hoops.

I'm not totally against zoos; I think they serve a purpose when it comes to endangered species.

Dolphins, sea lions, and sting rays are not endangered - there is no reason, other than the profit motive, to have these shows and these places exist.

You see the VAST majority of folks leaving, say, SeaWorld or the Miami Seaquarium, and their comments are on how "cute" the "seal" was, or how high "Lolita" jumped, and ".. boy, didn't she soak those folks down in front..."

I just don't see it - we need to evolve. If you told me 20 years ago that smoking would be banned in many bars, I would not have believed it - but its true. The best way is vote w/ your wallet - don't go to these places (not suggesting you or the vast majority of divers would), and don't hold your breath laboring under the misconception that they are anything other than what they are.

Sorry to get on such a soapbox on this topic but I think if these venues, and animal acts in circus' were banned, our society (and the animals)would be better off.

 

[1KWIK_69]

What it all boils down to is they are just animals and in nature all the higher animals live off of lower ones. When someone shoots a deer, they aren't being cruel. They're
hunting for food most of the time and if they weren't doing that, they would just be
having that many more cows killed for food so I have no problem with it. If someone
wants to raise a dolphin in captivity from birth so it doesn't know what it's missing out
on, and it's well cared for, that's fine. Taking a wild animal from nature and turning
it into a pet just isn't right. Especially when it's done just to make a buck.

 

[1KWIK_69]

Do you really think THAT was my point?

No. I got your point about how the "Animal Rights" people are usually too dumb to understand the consiquences of their actions. I was just pointing out my position that responsible use without being cruel is the way to go.

 

[Jupiter31]

What it all boils down to is they are just animals and in nature all the higher animals live off of lower ones. When someone shoots a deer, they aren't being cruel. They're
hunting for food most of the time and if they weren't doing that, they would just be
having that many more cows killed for food so I have no problem with it. If someone
wants to raise a dolphin in captivity from birth so it doesn't know what it's missing out
on, and it's well cared for, that's fine. Taking a wild animal from nature and turning
it into a pet just isn't right. Especially when it's done just to make a buck.

How do I have the feeling we are going to disagree on this issue; because using your logic and your quote:

"If someone
wants to raise a dolphin in captivity from birth so it doesn't know what it's missing out
on, and it's well cared for, that's fine".

No, sorry - its not fine. These mamals were not meant to be captives, nor "pets". If the only reason to keep them is for mans (dubious) entertainment, its wrong.

By your logic, why not get a monkey, or a lion or tiger cub, or any other non domesticated animal and make a pet of it, so long as it was born domestically. These are wild animals, and they make very poor pets.

The fact that a dolphin, for example, could have been born at SeaWorld, for example, and never saw the ocean does not make its captivity any more palatable, any more so than having a lion for a "pet" is right, regardless whether that lion cub was born in Africa or in captivity in Florida.

I'm no "tree hugger" - and I am happy to say I'm not a vegatarian - and I think the radical Animal Rights folks - like some members of PETA, for exmple - are totally out to lunch.

But to quote your own words, "... that responsible use without being cruel is the way to go" is impossible in this instance, whether the example is a pen in Cozumel (which started this thread), or an inadequate enclosure for whales and dolphins - just the act of keeping these animals is cruel.

 

[1KWIK_69]

I'll agree that Dolphins and whales are on a different level of intelligence than fish so they should have a lot more consideration given to them, but keeping them in a large comfortable enclosure from birth is not much different than joe schmoe having an aquarium in his livingroom. Those little blue painted swimming pools that theme parks like to put dolphins in are way too inadequate for them to be happy in and I'm against those.