what makes a diving agency a diving agency?

[boulderjohn]

I am not comparing skills. I am talking basics. Gear match, gas plan, knowing what it means when someone says optional. And sorry, but if you can't execute an air share properly, you should not be posing as a competent buddy on any but the most benign of dives.

I think its completely fair to hold even the newest of divers to these basic standards. And if they cannot meet these standards, I don't assume they are stupid. I assume that they just were not taught properly.

I see. So there is no possibility that they were taught properly 5 years ago and haven't practiced it since? Everyone you know has perfect recall of everything they were ever taught and every skill they ever learned over their lifetime?

A third of a century ago I was a ranked volleyball player. If I were to play now you would assume I had never played the game. Does that mean I was instructed poorly in the beginning?

 

[Doppler]

...I'd bet that those at the top of their game the Thals, Dopplers, Netdocs have made mistakes but do their utmost to keep it quiet And I would not think that we could say any one of them was not educated properly.

If only you knew, mate!

 

[Adobo]

Adobo,

Personally I think there are shades of grey in diving.

I agree with Netdoc - I have had divers say to me have you forgotten something? And then noticed weightbelt missing ! I've also done the same thing myself.

I also agree with Doppler. You can have the best training in the world and still mess up and you can't blame the instructor. Sometimes we just get complacent, simply forget something or Murphy beckons. As divers we have to be on our guard against this.

I'd bet that those at the top of their game the Thals, Dopplers, Netdocs have made mistakes but do their utmost to keep it quiet And I would not think that we could say any one of them was not educated properly.

Let me re-state the way this conversation unfolded:

I agree that training / education is one of the keystones... but just one of them and only a part of the solution.
You cannot legislate or educate around stupidity and a sense of entitlement that makes a person over-extend set limits.

My guess is that just as many *ignorant* divers get in trouble as stupid divers. These two types of divers being separate and distinct.

I don't know, Ted. We emphasize buddy checks in our classes, and one of the last things I tell our students is that, once they get out of class, they will see most of these safety things honored more in the breach than in the observance, and that they shouldn't allow peer pressure to make them jettison the good habits they've been taught.

I'd be REAL curious to see how many of them are bothering with any of it a year later. I know from personal experience that it is difficult to hold the line on those good practices when they are ignored around you, or worse, you are even given static for insisting on them. This occurs occasionally, even within the "culture of safety" in which I dive.

It's neither ignorance nor stupidity. It's human nature.

Why are the vast majority of GUE divers around me consistently doing buddy checks? Are they less human? I mean, I can see where someone who has a bunch of experience maybe deciding that the don't need gear checks anymore. But in the example above, I am talking about vacation divers who have little experience. You would think that they would be, of all people, to be the most motivated to follow every step taught in their open water class.

I am not an instructor. But the evidence I have seen is that when divers pay attention and make an honest effort in fundies/essentials, they come out the other end seemingly less stupid. Or maybe less human.

My point isn't that there are no stupid people. My point isn't that there are no people who forget. My point isn't that you can't come up with a 100 different examples of people who don't fall into the *ignorant* category.

My point is this... the vast majority of divers that come out of open water certification, from what I can see in this forum, from what I have seen at local dive sites and what I have seen during vacation dives is that they don't know how to properly gas plan, they don't know how properly weight themselves and they seemingly have little idea as to what is important (doing a safety stop even though they are dangerously low on gas). Now, if you will indulge me on that point for a moment, then I would ask this question.. do people find themselves without knowledge of how to gas plan or how to weight themselves properly because they are stupid? Or because they forgot? Or because of 100 other reasons? Or is it because there are a great number of open water classes out there that are taught over 2 weekends?

I took Essentials when I had less than 10 dives under my belt. When I walked out of the class, I knew how to gas plan, I knew how to do proper equipment checks, I knew how to do proper weight checks and I had, in class, practiced how to do air shares. So I felt like I was far more prepared to be responsible for my own well being while diving after Essentials than I was before. And its not because I was less stupid. It was because I was less ignorant.

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I see. So there is no possibility that they were taught properly 5 years ago and haven't practiced it since? Everyone you know has perfect recall of everything they were ever taught and every skill they ever learned over their lifetime?

A third of a century ago I was a ranked volleyball player. If I were to play now you would assume I had never played the game. Does that mean I was instructed poorly in the beginning?

Its been 6 years since I last took a class that talked about gas planning for recreational diving. 6 years since I took a class that introduced the concept of a balanced rig. 6 years since taking a class that talked about anything related to the recreational diving deco. Yet I have enough of a recollection on these topics to know that they are important. Enough of a recollection to know that if I don't remember how much gas I need to get from 100ft to the surface with a buddy, that I better brush up. Enough of a recollection to know that if I really cannot figure any of this stuff out, that I do not have enough of a baseline knowledge to be able to do even a 30ft reef dive and have a reasonable expectation of a good outcome should an emergency arise during that seemingly benign dive.

 

[TSandM]

I completely agree with you, Adobo, about the things that are left out of a basic OW class, gas planning being one of them. Although Peter makes his students go through SAC rate calculations after their OW dives, and has them look at what those numbers mean for tank duration for the depth of diving they're certified to do, he doesn't go through the concept of rock bottom or planning for available gas. Those things ARE part of his Nitrox, AOW, Deep, and Rescue classes -- in other words, just about anything more advanced than OW.

But I've seen GUE divers start a technical dive without a head-to-toe equipment check, and seen LOTS of them start a recreational dive without doing it -- including GUE instructors. NOBODY is exempt from complacency and laziness. The difference in our culture is that it's acceptable to call people on it (although in the case of the tech dive, I got some pushback).

 

[Thalassamania]

For the record, diving and dive vacations are growing, but not in the traditional markets of Europe and North America. The situation in SE Asia is remarkable and blows the doors off just about ANY operation here (USA) or in Europe.

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I agree that training / education is one of the keystones... but just one of them and only a part of the solution.

You cannot legislate or educate around stupidity and a sense of entitlement that makes a person over-extend set limits.

I disagree. You may not be able to legislate, but you can select for certain attributes and attitudes as well as train to enhance them and wind up with people who minimize stupidity and minimize any sense of entitlement but who are also sufficiently skilled and knowledgeable to easily survive a rare, small, overstep in to either of the aforementioned realms. GUE suggests that this requires sixty hours of training, eight dives and diving in a rather rigid fashion with similarly trained and committed team members while I (speaking if I might for all who run Scripps Model courses) suggest that for our less rigid world, 100 hours, 12 dives and diving in a somewhat less rigid fashion with similarly trained and committed team members is what it takes. But ... in either case, we reject the idea that such a goal can be reasonably met, routinely, in thirty or less hours with four or less dives. That is why dive boats require AOW and still send a DM along ... they're not stupid and they see stupid on a daily basis.

I am not comparing skills. I am talking basics. Gear match, gas plan, knowing what it means when someone says optional. And sorry, but if you can't execute an air share properly, you should not be posing as a competent buddy on any but the most benign of dives.

I think its completely fair to hold even the newest of divers to these basic standards. And if they cannot meet these standards, I don't assume they are stupid. I assume that they just were not taught properly.

I understand what you are saying and agree. Many in the recreational community do not because the recognize that hitting the target you describe is no possible within the confines of current course structures (thus the admonishments to "not dive outside the limits of your training" without clear definition of what those limits are) and the lack of sufficient "top" and repetition in courses to enable the diver to handle the stochastic process of the ocean that often place one, unintentionally, "one step over the line."

I think I can answer my own question for you.

Since it set up its basic recreational program, GUE has only had a relative handful of people get their initial dive certification through them. The odds of your having met one is very small indeed. A Fundies graduate has almost always taken several courses before that one, and they will have a very serious outlook on diving before they even take that very intense class. They will certainly be committed to diving as (at least) a serious hobby to which they are willing to dedicate considerable time and expense.

To compare a GUE Fundies graduate to a typical recreational diver is therefore not a fair comparison. A huge percentage of recreational divers have taken nothing but OW and usually don't dive more than on an annual vacation, if that. To compare the skills and approaches to the two would be to compare the math abilities of a high school freshman with a senior calculus student and say the senior calculus student's teach must be doing a better job with the instruction because that student knows so much more.

While I agree with you in part, I think what Adobo and I are saying is that we feel the typical recreational diver is insufficient trained, that the typical recreational diver has not mastered the requisite basics, and that while we applaud steps toward creating more competent divers, such as teaching neutrally, we oppose seeing that done at the expense of what we see as other basic skills like CESA, compass work, gas management, decompression theory, tables and computers and rescue.

Adobo,

Personally I think there are shades of grey in diving.

I agree with Netdoc - I have had divers say to me have you forgotten something? And then noticed weightbelt missing ! I've also done the same thing myself.

That's what checklists and buddy checks are for. It is not an error until you get into the water. Forgetting a weightbelt is not a safety issue anyway, it is a convenience issue, it being inconvenient to not be able to make the dive.

I also agree with Doppler. You can have the best training in the world and still mess up and you can't blame the instructor. Sometimes we just get complacent, simply forget something or Murphy beckons. As divers we have to be on our guard against this.

I think that you are agreeing with something that Steve put forward, but that I suspect is more in the form a hurried miss-statement than a carefully formed opinion (Steve - correct me if I am wrong about what you think). When you have the "best training in the world" you can still mess up, but ... this is important ... you're messup is much smaller and you have the skills to cover the problem. For example, you go down with a regulator with no cable tie holding the mouthpiece on. During the dive the regulator falls out (yes, I've had this happen). A well trained diver, who is comfortable holding his or her breath for two minutes or more, who is experienced with a wet breathing snorkel, does not choke and cough, but calmly shifts to his or her auxiliary and then sorts thing out. The typical recreational diver, especially one with no free diving skills and no snorkel experience, takes on water, starts to cough and then claws for the surface (and if they've not even trained to perform a CESA properly, that all but guarantees a claw rather than a safe 30 fpm ascent).

I'd bet that those at the top of their game the Thals, Dopplers, Netdocs have made mistakes but do their utmost to keep it quiet And I would not think that we could say any one of them was not educated properly.

As Einstein said, "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new." and we try new things several times a day. I think I can speak here at least for Steve and Adobo: we discuss our mistakes all the time, we pay far more attention to them then to our successes and we share them with our students and colleagues.

 

[beaverdivers]

I'm late to this thread. Sorry I've been U/W.

However after 30 or so dives in 10 days @ WAKATOBI w/ a group of a bakers dozen, we had it dialed in by the end of the trip. The first checkout dive not so much.

I believe it is not about the cert. agency, it's ALL about going diving and perfecting your skills.

Unfortunately, most of us don't get to dive as often as we would like ( or need ).

We are very Proud of our Beaver Divers!

 

[Trace Malinowski]

Revisiting psychology class, if we take Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs and focus on the need to self-actualize and how it may affect diver safety we can get an idea for how much responsibility is shared by standards bodies, training agencies, instructor trainers, instructors, dive shops, or the diver himself.

As Thal points out, his scientific community has an excellent safety record. But, scientists don't feed their egos by diving. They feed their egos by b***h-slapping some other Ph.D. who desperately deserves it by proving theories and publishing how right they are in scientific journals. Deaths result when someone's career and reputation are ruined or he jumps out a window because he can't get tenure due to Affirmative Action.

Tech divers often use the sport to feed their egos. Egos are fed through being the first one on your block to get a rebreather, get a Tech 2 C-card, or squeeze through a small hole in the cave or grab the bell from a wreck. Deaths result when someone thought they could do something and couldn't or overlooked something due to task-loading.

Sport divers are often just happy to be breathing underwater and seeing what's down there. Egos are fed through attaining C-cards, dive travel, and becoming a DM or instructor. But, since all divers are drawn to adventure and challenge, they will attempt dives that push their limits as well. Deaths result from ignorance, inadequate training, ill-fitting equipment, rusty emergency procedures, and being physically unprepared for the environment, or just being a jack-@$$.

The death that drives us crazy is when a nice young mother dies from entering the water without being able to turn on her air and is overweighted and forgets to ditch weight. This is the diver we argue about protecting - the one who just wants to go have some fun and then live a long time watching her kids grow up to have families of their own, the one who doesn't self-select added risk, and hopes that the money she spent on her training, education, and safety will allow her to be a grandmother someday.

Training agencies, instructors, and dive shops can do a better job at preventing the deaths of those who really want to survive the dive and who are trying to stay safe and stay out of trouble. I believe everyone should be able to go diving. The HSA, IAHD, and Dive Heart prove even the severely disabled can enjoy the sport with the right support and buddies. But, not everyone is safely capable of truly being a "certified diver" and not everyone should be encouraged to be DM's or instructors.

What makes a training agency? A lot of paper.

What makes a diver? Highly-skilled people committed to quality education. That includes a motivated student - most importantly a motivated student who takes personal responsibility for his or her safety. But, training agencies should provide the road map to the path of excellence and dive pros should set the bar for excellence on day one.

 

[DCBC]

...training agencies should provide the road map to the path of excellence and dive pros should set the bar for excellence on day one.

I totally agree Trace (good to hear from you BTW)! I suppose that there is some discussion on where that bar should be set. Some take a minimalist view and others feel that the bar should be set higher to help insure the safety of Mom... Both the Agency and in some cases, the Instructor decide upon where that bar will be. There is always a trade-off between profit and safety. Some tend to gravitate more to one side than the other. Hopefully the consumer will be informed enough to make an educated decision...

 

[Doppler]

Revisiting psychology class, if we take Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs ...

What the heck are you doing citing Maslow at two o'clock in the morning, Trace? Need to talk at DEMA. I will look you up.

What makes a training agency? A lot of paper...

Perfect answer.

...something that Steve put forward, but that I suspect is more in the form a hurried miss-statement than a carefully formed opinion (Steve - correct me if I am wrong about what you think).

True, and wanted to make the point that even a carefully-trained diver screws things up... No argument that the potential OUTCOME of some entry-level programs may be a punter who is hardly fit to be called a diver... but by the same token, I believe that shoveling sole responsibility on an Agency doorstep over-simplifies the issue.

And there is certainly nothing wrong with continuing diver education... although I declare a SLIGHT conflict of interest on that score.

 

[The Chairman]

Way too true, Trace... so much of what is being taught now is simply ego driven as are claims of perfection. Great post and incredibly funny!