what makes a diving agency a diving agency?

[Adobo]

I don't know, Ted. We emphasize buddy checks in our classes, and one of the last things I tell our students is that, once they get out of class, they will see most of these safety things honored more in the breach than in the observance, and that they shouldn't allow peer pressure to make them jettison the good habits they've been taught.

I'd be REAL curious to see how many of them are bothering with any of it a year later. I know from personal experience that it is difficult to hold the line on those good practices when they are ignored around you, or worse, you are even given static for insisting on them. This occurs occasionally, even within the "culture of safety" in which I dive.

It's neither ignorance nor stupidity. It's human nature.

Why are the vast majority of GUE divers around me consistently doing buddy checks? Are they less human? I mean, I can see where someone who has a bunch of experience maybe deciding that the don't need gear checks anymore. But in the example above, I am talking about vacation divers who have little experience. You would think that they would be, of all people, to be the most motivated to follow every step taught in their open water class.

I am not an instructor. But the evidence I have seen is that when divers pay attention and make an honest effort in fundies/essentials, they come out the other end seemingly less stupid. Or maybe less human.

 

[The Chairman]

It would be however, big headed of me to attribute this solely to my training.

We're obviously singing from the same hymnal and pissing in the same latrine when it comes to these types of claims. It's easy enough to define yourself into being some uber instructor, but why would you really want to? I am convinced that each of us is conscientious as an instructor and we are doing the best that we can. What makes a training agency right for me? It's efficient, fun, safe and does no harm to the environment. Most instructors aren't nearly efficient or fun enough for me. A number of them indirectly cause harm to the environment through their students inability to stay off of my reefs. I have only met one unsafe instructor in my life. That being the case, you don't see me trashing agencies that don't fit my paradigm of the perfect agency. Even then, you don't see me teaching for them either. While I vote with my fins, I'm certainly not "insulted" by those who attempt to be different and take training up a notch or two. That's just ludicrous.

 

[boulderjohn]

Why are the vast majority of GUE divers around me consistently doing buddy checks? Are they less human?

Are these GUE divers who have taken the basic GUE first level certification course and then go a year or so between dives, or are they GUE trained divers who already had several certifications from other agencies and then dive regularly?

 

[Doppler]

My guess is that just as many *ignorant* divers get in trouble as stupid divers. These two types of divers being separate and distinct.

I'll give two examples of people who I think behaved the way they did out of ignorance as opposed to stupidity:

1. I can't count the amount of times I've been on a boat with newer divers who don't do a proper gear check in the water. Countless times I've had to help divers get their gear sorted out before descending. I suspect the rest of the pre-dive prep was every bit as neglected. And these new divers, after spending their entire open water certification class being told how important it is to dive with a clearly identified buddy, proceed to do a dive as part of a group where no buddies are assigned, blindly following a *professional* wherever they are told to go.
2. Recently, there was an incident in my area where two divers got in trouble. After one member of the team ran low on gas, both decided to do an *optional* safety stop. Things went south from there.

Is it stupidity/sense of entitlement that make people do these types of things? Or is it *ignorance*? Personally, I think it is ignorance. People just don't know what they don't know. I think its patently unfair to characterize people as stupid for not knowing how to make the best decisions after giving them a 2 weekend open water certification class.

I am not a proponent of legislating anything but I suspect educating people better on how to dive would fix at least half of the people that you might consider *stupid*.

Let me give you an illustration... something that informs my cynicism (and believe me, I have nothing against quality, thorough, targeted education). Oh, and let's remind ourselves that the OP was about agencies...

The last thing a CCR instructor is told to say to a graduate from his/her air-diluent classes, as they hand the new CCR diver their C-Card, is "Don't forget to use a CHECKLIST." Checklists are mentioned repeatedly in ALL the educational materials I have seen, had a hand in editing, and written.

During a recent convention on Rebreather Safety, a very experienced man, member of the team investigating CCR incidents resulting in diver death, explained to me that in 100 percent of the cases he has worked on there was NO SIGN of a physical pre-dive checklist on the diver's person or in his kit. NONE.

That's not lack of education. That is not the fault of the manufacturer. The agencies are not at fault and nor are the instructors. The fault is diver complacency... call it stupidity or bone-headed ignorance... makes no difference. Legislation, another agency, tighter standards will not solve things.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

 

[Adobo]

Let me give you an illustration... something that informs my cynicism (and believe me, I have nothing against quality, thorough, targeted education). Oh, and let's remind ourselves that the OP was about agencies...

The last thing a CCR instructor is told to say to a graduate from his/her air-diluent classes, as they hand the new CCR diver their C-Card, is "Don't forget to use a CHECKLIST." Checklists are mentioned repeatedly in ALL the educational materials I have seen, had a hand in editing, and written.

During a recent convention on Rebreather Safety, a very experienced man, member of the team investigating CCR incidents resulting in diver death, explained to me that in 100 percent of the cases he has worked on there was NO SIGN of a physical pre-dive checklist on the diver's person or in his kit. NONE.

That's not lack of education. That is not the fault of the manufacturer. The agencies are not at fault and nor are the instructors. The fault is diver complacency... call it stupidity or bone-headed ignorance... makes no difference. Legislation, another agency, tighter standards will not solve things.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

I am sure that *stupidity* is a huge part of the equation. All I am saying is that we can't write everyone off as stupid. In fact, my assumption is that when someone is fresh out of open water certification, they are ignorant as to how to properly plan and execute even the most basic of dives. And I suspect I am right more often than not. Whether or not they are stupid on top of ignorant, I have no idea.

 

[The Chairman]

Why are the vast majority of GUE divers around me consistently doing buddy checks?

That can be said for any tech or cave oriented diver. Moreover, I can safely say that I, along with most of the instructors out there, will do entire boat checks. I recognize any number of deficiencies before anyone on the boat splashes and make sure that they are corrected before they do. I give a mental "Pass" or "FAIL!" on every piece of kit I see assembled. Saturday's boat had a young lady with her reg on backwards. As Reggie Ross used to say during my ITC: "Do they look like a diver? What about them is making your Spidey Sense go off?" You don't have to be GUE or an uber diver to care about your buddy or those on the boat with you.

 

[Adobo]

Are these GUE divers who have taken the basic GUE first level certification course and then go a year or so between dives, or are they GUE trained divers who already had several certifications from other agencies and then dive regularly?

I dunno. I dive with people with a broad range of training/experience. From fundies only to tech2/cave2 divers. I don't usually dive with people who take fundies and then don't dive for a year. On the odd occasion, I dive with people with zero GUE/UTD training (which is almost always the case when I am in Hawaii). I always let them lead me on their pre-dive ritual and sprinkle in some input whenever required.

My only point on invoking GUE/UTD is that divers that finish entry level GUE/UTD classes is that they know some of the very basics which the vast majority of fresh open water graduates don't know - how to gas plan, how to weight themselves properly, how to execute a gas share and how to blow off a safety stop when there is an emergency.

 

[boulderjohn]

I dunno. I dive with people with a broad range of training/experience. From fundies only to tech2/cave2 divers. I don't usually dive with people who take fundies and then don't dive for a year. On the odd occasion, I dive with people with zero GUE/UTD training (which is almost always the case when I am in Hawaii). I always let them lead me on their pre-dive ritual and sprinkle in some input whenever required.

My only point on invoking GUE/UTD is that divers that finish entry level GUE/UTD classes is that they know some of the very basics which the vast majority of fresh open water graduates don't know - how to gas plan, how to weight themselves properly, how to execute a gas share and how to blow off a safety stop when there is an emergency.

I think I can answer my own question for you.

Since it set up its basic recreational program, GUE has only had a relative handful of people get their initial dive certification through them. The odds of your having met one is very small indeed. A Fundies graduate has almost always taken several courses before that one, and they will have a very serious outlook on diving before they even take that very intense class. They will certainly be committed to diving as (at least) a serious hobby to which they are willing to dedicate considerable time and expense.

To compare a GUE Fundies graduate to a typical recreational diver is therefore not a fair comparison. A huge percentage of recreational divers have taken nothing but OW and usually don't dive more than on an annual vacation, if that. To compare the skills and approaches to the two would be to compare the math abilities of a high school freshman with a senior calculus student and say the senior calculus student's teach must be doing a better job with the instruction because that student knows so much more.

 

[Adobo]

I think I can answer my own question for you.

Since it set up its basic recreational program, GUE has only had a relative handful of people get their initial dive certification through them. The odds of your having met one is very small indeed. A Fundies graduate has almost always taken several courses before that one, and they will have a very serious outlook on diving before they even take that very intense class. They will certainly be committed to diving as (at least) a serious hobby to which they are willing to dedicate considerable time and expense.

To compare a GUE Fundies graduate to a typical recreational diver is therefore not a fair comparison. A huge percentage of recreational divers have taken nothing but OW and usually don't dive more than on an annual vacation, if that. To compare the skills and approaches to the two would be to compare the math abilities of a high school freshman with a senior calculus student and say the senior calculus student's teach must be doing a better job with the instruction because that student knows so much more.

I am not comparing skills. I am talking basics. Gear match, gas plan, knowing what it means when someone says optional. And sorry, but if you can't execute an air share properly, you should not be posing as a competent buddy on any but the most benign of dives.

I think its completely fair to hold even the newest of divers to these basic standards. And if they cannot meet these standards, I don't assume they are stupid. I assume that they just were not taught properly.

---------- Post Merged at 12:50 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 11:38 AM ----------

You don't have to be GUE or an uber diver to care about your buddy or those on the boat with you.

You don't have to preach to me, reverend. I am part of the choir. But I also know that being overzealous about how I express that I care, well, that is how bad reputations are earned. And if someone just isn't interested in advice, they aren't interested.

 

[dbulmer]

Adobo,

Personally I think there are shades of grey in diving.

I agree with Netdoc - I have had divers say to me have you forgotten something? And then noticed weightbelt missing ! I've also done the same thing myself.

I also agree with Doppler. You can have the best training in the world and still mess up and you can't blame the instructor. Sometimes we just get complacent, simply forget something or Murphy beckons. As divers we have to be on our guard against this.

I'd bet that those at the top of their game the Thals, Dopplers, Netdocs have made mistakes but do their utmost to keep it quiet And I would not think that we could say any one of them was not educated properly.