What is the other option for diving doubles beside bp/w

[danvolker]

I have never said bp/w, long hose is owned by DIR. I don't know where you guys get to this conclusion. The fact is DIR divers use them, but doesn't mean whoever uses them is DIR. They are logically not equivalent.

Most bp/w, long hose .... diver I have seem ended up going into tech/cave route. To many, including this buddy of mine, they think this setup is for advanced/tech/cave diving. They don't see the need of using the same equipment, which to them is old school, not featured enough especially for the $$, ugly ....

I sort of know where he got his influence from. He went to Philipine for a dive vacation. According to him, the DM their group hired as a tour guide had very good in water skill ... best buoyancy & control with only rental reg and jacket BC. The conclusion for him is long hose, bp/w ... (so called the tech setup) are not necessary. Ever since that, he is trying to do what that DM do, including doing safety stop upright with arms across in front of chest, and a few other "techniques" he picked up. Well those are for another thread.

Nothing wrong with his way of diving. He is still a conservative and safe diver. I still dive with him. We just have a different mindset now.

Actually this is not true.. His decision about not wanting to use the long hose, is not about HIM as he thinks it is...it is about his choice that YOUR NEEDS as a buddy are not very relevant. If you ever practice an air share drill with a diver using a long hose, preferably DIR style.....you will find the buddy sharing so easy and non-stressful, that there is simply no way to compare the experience of sharring air/gas by "traditional means" without the long hose.

In a real emergency scenario, if his buddy were to run out of air/gas, while fairly deep and in a current ( so you actually need to be able to swim effectively --there are MANY actual examples I could list) using an Air II set up, or traditional short octopus hoses, means that he and the buddy are so close together, that they will be bumping into each other's legs, and interfering with each other through the rest of the return to the boat. This increases stress and potential for dire consequences should one diver become too overwhelmed by the challenge of this.
There is also the issue of the buddy having been out of air for a while, and being frantic to get air when they finally make it to him....if the reg is not really easy to grab, they could blackout, and they know it/are afraid of this---and they will be grabbing the first reg they see they know has air in it and is working--this is the reg in the mouth of your friend
They would be ripping the reg out of his mouth, and how will he like this with his setup as of now? In shallow recreational dives, fear of not getting air is less pronounced, as a free ascent to the surface is always possible....however, this is NOT possible on a tek dive where doubles are required.

In the truest sense, a smart technical diver needs to buddy with people that see his needs equally with their own, and vice versa. I don't think this guy is thinking about you at all, and this is a real mindset--one that I actually don't think you can change.....if a person is that narcissistic, or self indulgent, they are just not buddy material.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Exactly ... a good dive buddy doesn't think in terms of "my" dive ... he thinks in terms of "our" dive ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[rjack321]

all fair comments. Let's not turn this into DIR vs non DIR. bp/w vs all other. I simple want to see other options. Persoanlly, I have never seen doubles with non bp/w, although my buddy keep telling me Ranger compatible with doubles.

DiveRite transpac can take doubles. I used one once upon a time. Its floppy, has lots of strap material everywhere too. There are small wing shaped "support plates" which are required to distribute the weight of the doubles on land over a larger area of fabric. Essentially "mini-plates". I used it with double hp80s and hp119s. You don't see that many people using transpacs with doubles on the west coast USA because most folks on this coast have chosen BP/Ws as a superior system for cold water, drysuit diving.

 

[eelnoraa]

Actually this is not true.. His decision about not wanting to use the long hose, is not about HIM as he thinks it is...it is about his choice that YOUR NEEDS as a buddy are not very relevant. If you ever practice an air share drill with a diver using a long hose, preferably DIR style.....you will find the buddy sharing so easy and non-stressful, that there is simply no way to compare the experience of sharring air/gas by "traditional means" without the long hose.

In a real emergency scenario, if his buddy were to run out of air/gas, while fairly deep and in a current ( so you actually need to be able to swim effectively --there are MANY actual examples I could list) using an Air II set up, or traditional short octopus hoses, means that he and the buddy are so close together, that they will be bumping into each other's legs, and interfering with each other through the rest of the return to the boat. This increases stress and potential for dire consequences should one diver become too overwhelmed by the challenge of this.
There is also the issue of the buddy having been out of air for a while, and being frantic to get air when they finally make it to him....if the reg is not really easy to grab, they could blackout, and they know it/are afraid of this---and they will be grabbing the first reg they see they know has air in it and is working--this is the reg in the mouth of your friend
They would be ripping the reg out of his mouth, and how will he like this with his setup as of now? In shallow recreational dives, fear of not getting air is less pronounced, as a free ascent to the surface is always possible....however, this is NOT possible on a tek dive where doubles are required.

In the truest sense, a smart technical diver needs to buddy with people that see his needs equally with their own, and vice versa. I don't think this guy is thinking about you at all, and this is a real mindset--one that I actually don't think you can change.....if a person is that narcissistic, or self indulgent, they are just not buddy material.

I totally agree with you. It is the main reason I want to convince him to try long hose reg setup, and amount other stuffs. And it has proven to be difficult. The thing that bother me, at least a little, is he doesn't see the need, or maybe I should say he doesn't see why it is better.

And you are both incorrect.

Your friend has proven he is keen on remaining ignorant.

Why bother trying to change that when you agree with him?

???? Incorrect about what? what I have seen is just what I have seen, correct or not is irrelavent.
And the reason I want to convince my buddy for a change is because I have used and adopted a system which I think it is superior. But each person is entitled to his/her own opionion.

 

[rongoodman]

And the reason I want to convince my buddy for a change is because I have used and adopted a system which I think it is superior. But each person is entitled to his/her own opionion.

He's entitled to his own opinion, but not to dive with you. If you think the changes you want him to make are important for your safety, and he's unwilling to consider them, you need to decide if you want to continue with him as a partner, at least on the more challenging dives you're anticipating in the future.

 

[Akimbo]

Exactly ... a good dive buddy doesn't think in terms of "my" dive ... he thinks in terms of "our" dive ...

Probably true. I am sure by your definition I really suck as a buddy since I rarely hook up an octopus or a backup regulator for recreational dives. I consider the inability to buddy-breath a good litmus test. Anybody who has a coronary from looking at my rig on deck is not someone I want to be in the water with.

I have lent an octopus in two OOG (Out Of Gas) situations. We were working the exterior of a wreck. That hose could have been 24" with length to spare. He grabbed my harness and we were close enough to waltz as we moved toward sunshine. I really don’t want some guy hanging off my first stage 7’ away unless it is a penetration dive… not on MY dive anyway.

 

[Blackwood]

. I really don’t want some guy hanging off my first stage 7’ away unless it is a penetration dive… not on MY dive anyway.

You don't need to give all seven. Hog routing tucks either underneath a light can or into the waist strap. If you don't untuck, you end up donating more like 3 (guestimate).

 

[Cixelsyd]

Actually this is not true.. His decision about not wanting to use the long hose, is not about HIM as he thinks it is...it is about his choice that YOUR NEEDS as a buddy are not very relevant. If you ever practice an air share drill with a diver using a long hose, preferably DIR style.....you will find the buddy sharing so easy and non-stressful, that there is simply no way to compare the experience of sharring air/gas by "traditional means" without the long hose.

In a real emergency scenario, if his buddy were to run out of air/gas, while fairly deep and in a current ( so you actually need to be able to swim effectively --there are MANY actual examples I could list) using an Air II set up, or traditional short octopus hoses, means that he and the buddy are so close together, that they will be bumping into each other's legs, and interfering with each other through the rest of the return to the boat. This increases stress and potential for dire consequences should one diver become too overwhelmed by the challenge of this.
There is also the issue of the buddy having been out of air for a while, and being frantic to get air when they finally make it to him....if the reg is not really easy to grab, they could blackout, and they know it/are afraid of this---and they will be grabbing the first reg they see they know has air in it and is working--this is the reg in the mouth of your friend
They would be ripping the reg out of his mouth, and how will he like this with his setup as of now? In shallow recreational dives, fear of not getting air is less pronounced, as a free ascent to the surface is always possible....however, this is NOT possible on a tek dive where doubles are required.

In the truest sense, a smart technical diver needs to buddy with people that see his needs equally with their own, and vice versa. I don't think this guy is thinking about you at all, and this is a real mindset--one that I actually don't think you can change.....if a person is that narcissistic, or self indulgent, they are just not buddy material.

How did we get from "is it technically possible to dive doubles without a bp/w"" to "your buddy will kill someone unless he dives a certain way."

Seems like every thread on this board ends up the same way.

 

[danvolker]

How did we get from "is it technically possible to dive doubles without a bp/w"" to "your buddy will kill someone unless he dives a certain way."

Seems like every thread on this board ends up the same way.

If you read the whole thread, the OP was concerned about more than just the ability of two cam bands on a poodle jacket to hold a set of doubles.

I directly "ANSWERED" a post by the OP, and you apparently don't like that the OP could "expand" on the context of his initial post.

And why exactly do you think it is just fine for a diver to decide it is just fine for them to skimp on the tools now widely accepted as best for technical diving? This is implied by your suggestion that my post turned this into another "bungee wings of death" scenario.... and that was NOT my intent.

 

[eelnoraa]

It started out as the threat title says. Then someone asked the why, which I think it is a very good question that I don't have exact answer too. So it went talking about adapting new dive mindset and system.

Maybe it is time to close this thread and open a "how to convince buddy to adopt a new, more flexible, and arguably safer dive system"