What is going on on training these days?

[Ber Rabbit]

Are you SURE you've never taught in Ohio? The first 3 days of your class are the same as ours and you teach the same snorkel walk we've used for 20+ years, this is getting scary! Where did you originally get this style of teaching? Just curious, wondering if it's possible the same person who started our program may have had some effect on yours, he's been around that's for sure!

I've been helping with the scuba class for over 9 years now and we have always entered the water with no air in the bc, I have never personally rocketed to the bottom nor seen a student do so. You simply hit the water, sink about a foot and naturally re-surface to give your buddy the "OK."

I've seen A LOT of students go through the program and have only seen 1 who was truly negatively buoyant. We found out during the floating part of the swim test, he COULD NOT float. Whenever he stopped treading he went to the bottom. He did not have that problem on scuba though.

I'm with Walter on this one, properly weighted should start at the beginning of the class.
Ber

BTW, to answer any questions about our safety record, in the 20+ (I believe it's now 26 years) years scuba has been taught at our university there has never been a serious scuba related injury on our check-outs or trips. (Moped injuries aren't being counted here, they rented those on their own!)

 

[Walter]

Ber,

My background is all southern redneck.

Ever hear of convergent evolution? Things start out different and through small changes over time become similar. This happens because they are evolving to fill the same niche.

Some instructors follow a book and can't teach without their little cards (made up by someone else) while others are constantly looking for better ways to do things. They develop some themselves and learn some from other people. They always think about what is being done and why. Why is the BC inflated? - To keep the student from sinking. Why is the student overweighted in the first place? To save the instructor the trouble of actually properly weighting the student. Once the reasons are found, it's often very easy to develop a better way to do things.

The genesis of some of my methods lie with me. Others I've picked up informally from other instructors. Some, probably the majority, I learned from Ken Nemeth and John Riddick. Ken teaches SCUBA independently in Atlanta, he is a member of the National YMCA SCUBA Advisory Committee. We do not teach the same class. I've modified my course, using his as my beginning point, as a result of my experience. We can (and have) fill in for each other as needed on most courses from OW through Instructor. I allowed my Instructor Trainer status to laspe, so unless I go through the steps to regain that qualification, I can not currently fill in for Ken as Institute Director. We are not certified to teach the same specialties (I can not teach photography and Ken is not Nitrox certified).

John once taught in Atlanta where he owned (and later sold) Dive Sales and Ski Chalet. I believe the store went out of business some years after he sold it. He was the owner/operator of Tavernier Dive Center in the Florida Keys from 1985 until around 1999 when he sold that business. While I was working at TDC (1985-92), John taught me to operate a dive charter and how some things taught in class are not practical in real life. I altered my teaching methods as a result.

Both men were YMCA and PADI instructors. although both primarily taught a YMCA program. John may have retired from teaching, although I could be wrong. Ken actively teaches in the Atlanta area.

 

[Ber Rabbit]

Dan Orr started our program and it's his outline that has persisted over the years (with some modification) in our program. If the name sounds a little familiar he is now the Chief Operating Officer of D.A.N. I know he has taught in many places so I was wondering if your area might have been one of them.
Ber

 

[Soggy]

Walter once bubbled...
Weighting, proper weighting, should be accomplished prior to learning entries.

What a nice, tidy name: "Proper Weighting"

How do you properly weight them? Are they wearing the exact same setup that they will be using in their OW dives? Ok...great...they know how much weight to use with a 3 mm wetsuit, AL80 tanks, blah, blah, blah.

What about when that same exact person goes on a dive requiring different gear. Do you really think that they are going to slap on all their gear, empty a tank to 500psi, and do a bouyancy check before getting on a boat? I know I don't...In fact, I've never seen anyone do that. I estimate what I need based on experience and add a couple lbs. Sometimes that means I'm a few lbs heavy. Just this weekend I was wearing a 2 piece 7mm wetsuit for the first time and had only a very rough idea as to how to weight myself. I was a bit heavy...if I had jumped off a boat without air in my BC, I would've sunk quite rapidly. Next time, I'll drop a few lbs.

Not teaching a student to inflate their BC before doing an entry is dangerous and negligent. Also, inflating the BC prior to entry ensures that your air is on! We are talking about NEW STUDENTS, not experienced divers with proper weighting tables scratched into their logbooks.

Yeah...most divers are overweighted...but it's far better to a be a bit overweighted rather than any amount underweighted. That last thing you want to happen is to be popping up to the surface on your safety/deco stop.


Live and learn.

 

[Ber Rabbit]

They are taught proper weighting procedures while in the pool so they can do it themselves if they need to change equipment. Yes they are properly weighted in the gear they will be using on their OW dives (7mm wetsuit with hood, boots and gloves). This is done at the beginning of the dive day on the first day of check-outs. They are instructed to bring 12% of their body weight in lead and we make adjustments from there. When they exhale on snorkeling gear they sink.

Like I said I myself have NEVER done anything but pop back to the surface after an entry with an empty bc even when I have to wear extra weight in the pool so I can assist students during their air-on bail outs. I wear about 6 extra pounds for that particular exercise.
Ber

 

[Nessie]

@walter
But how does ist come that 9 out of 10 of my students are doing the pool part without lead? A 10 l steel tank gives enough weight to be at least neutral if you are breathing in a relaxed manner.

 

[Big-t-2538]

Students should be learning from the beginning how to be properly weighted. If they are doing their classes in a pool, then what reason do they have to be inflating their BC's. The instructor should have already found out if someone is positive or negative bouyant before the students are jumping (or striding) into the water. In the case that you have a genuinely negative student, you could instruct that person to put some air in their BCD. In the 4 years I have been helping with classes, I have never seen anyone sink to the bottom after a stride entry in an BOW class. I don't think that a student's first entry on SCUBA should be weighted. Also, if you have a good Instructor and assisting staff, you know that all of the student's air is on. Students should be learning how to make themselves neutral from the beginning.

 

[Ber Rabbit]

Usually the only students I need to put lead on are the ones who have a positively buoyant physique (we use AL80's). Over time you can watch students relax and breathe normally and suddenly the ones who thought they needed lead realize they don't. If they are neutral or slightly negative on skin diving gear we work with their breathing first if they're having trouble staying down on scuba. Usually that fixes the problem and we don't have to adjust their weight again. If it's obvious the student is relaxed and comfortable with breathing underwater yet they still float when trying to kneel in the shallow end we add a couple pounds.

It doesn't surprise me that most of your students don't need lead with steel tanks.
Ber

 

[TCDiver1]

Gotta side with the some air in the BC on the surface people on this one. That's some air (a couple quick bursts) not a full BC. If a full BC is required to be comfortable at the surface, the student is massively overweighted. It's part of the pre-dive safety drill we teach. The only time this may change is if conditions require it. But in those cases we plan our dive to descend immediately upon entry for current or other reasons.

IMO, being positive at the surface is simply safer than being neutral or negative. This may not be true for the experienced diver who is 100% comfortable, 100% of the time but conditions and comfort levels can change dynamically at the surface.

Don't have any links to prove this but have read numerous articles on dive accidents and have seen it numerous times. A majority of these accidents start at the surface. Eg: a diver surfaces, pops the reg out of their mouth to tell their buddy something cool they saw, sucks some water, panic ensues, and because they failed to establish positive buoyancy, they have a serious problem, which becomes your problem.

Granted if they are not overweighted, they have a much smaller problem, but panic is panic. Swimmers drowned all the time and most are naturally positive. They would be in much worse shape if they were naturally neutral or negative.

I don't see the down side of being positive at the surface for students or new divers. Frankly, i don't see the down side of experienced divers being positive at the surface. I've shaken hands with Mr. Murphy too many times to feel otherwise.

 

[ckharlan66]

Actually gedunk that made me remember something.

Last time I was on a boat a man strided in and bit through his mouthpiece. Panic followed and it took two people on the boat the push him back on. (he was rather large). If he had been negative it would have been much worse and a recovery would have probably been in order.

Now I am fully aware that based on how easily he paniced he probably didn't have any business diving anyway (not without practice in a controled enviroment to get comfortable) but he was a "once a year in the warm water" diver.

Chad