What is going on on training these days?

[ckharlan66]

I agree with the need and importance of proper weighting.

I just don't think it is a bad idea to enter the water positive with air in the BC and then dump it to go down. However, it isn't as much of an issue if you are properly weighted and you have been trained in and practiced the skills you need to avoid panic.

Dive safe.

Chad

 

[Ber Rabbit]

It's very hard to remove ALL the air from a bc on the surface. Odds are when your bc was dumped the last time you did not dump it by sinking down into the water to make sure all the air was let out. Some people do but not all therefore there is still "some" air in the bc even when it is "empty." Our students rinse their bc's inside and out at the end of class so "all" of the air has not been removed from the bc when they put it on the next time. Even dumping air and hugging yourself still leaves a little air in the bc. I can get into the pool in a 3mil full suit wearing an AL80 and 12lbs of lead (needed to assist students with air-on bail outs) and NOT SINK even though I exhale as I enter; I come back to the surface. When we get students ready to do their bail outs we instruct them to sink down and get ALL of the air out of their bc's before they exit the water to prepare for the exercise. Even with all the air out very few can get to the bottom without help because they instinctively kick even though we've told them to let us do the work.

One thing that scares me about some entries with air in the bc: Some divers completely fill the bc before entering and when they hit the water the bc doesn't go under at all but the diver does. I'm always afraid they are going to whack the back of their head on the first stage as they slip through the bc since most don't have it tight enough to prevent slipping. When the diver and bc don't slip under the water what they basically do is step off, hit the water and STOP abruptly (if the bc is FULL). If they step off of a floating dock and the dock moves away as they step in they could get whacked in the head as it comes back to its original position. Personally I prefer to see diver and gear slip under the water and come up with a hand over their head.
Ber

 

[Jarhead]

I realize that that different areas do things a little differently but I have to weigh in with Walter and Ber Rabbit. Here is how we do it:

Gear up and buddy checks on the boat. I suck all (well, almost all) of the air out of my wing. Giant stride into the water. (Note: the DM is watching everyone enter the water. If you start kicking to the descent line, they know you're OK. They they tell you this during the pre-dive briefing. If there is a problem, it will be obvious). My buddy and I meet at 15 fsw on the descent line and recheck each other and then continue with the dive. If there is a problem, we return to the boat and fix the problem or call the dive. With the air trapped in my wetsuit and material of my BC, I could jump in with my buddy's weight belt, in addition to my gear, and still not sink immediately.

Gedunk: I keep my mask on my face and my reg in my mouth until I'm back on the boat. If the gentleman in your example would adopt that practice, he wouldn't have a reason to panic.

Respectfully Submitted,
Jarhead

 

[TCDiver1]

Jarhead once bubbled...

Gedunk: I keep my mask on my face and my reg in my mouth until I'm back on the boat. If the gentleman in your example would adopt that practice, he wouldn't have a reason to panic.

Respectfully Submitted,
Jarhead

Point is, you are apparently not one to have a problem at the surface. Many, experience talking here, do have problems at the surface if they don't maintain positive buoyancy. For most of these people the fix is simple. Put some air in your BCD to get positive. It alleviates many possible panic senarios caused by not being positive at the surface. I don't see the down side for less experienced divers.

I'm with you, i don't need be positive at the surface in most cases.
In fact i prefer being neutral or slightly negative so i can respond quicker to any problems which may be occuring at depth. The fact remains many divers are not that comfortable and IMO should be trained to be positive at the surface. As mentioned earlier, it eliminates many potential stressors for the less than experienced or the uncomfortable diver.

Ps: i assume from your handle birthday greetings are in order. Happy 227th and may you have a nice veterans day. Thanks

 

[Jarhead]

gedunk once bubbled...
Ps: i assume from your handle birthday greetings are in order. Happy 227th and may you have a nice veterans day. Thanks

Don't I remember seeing a "Semper Fi" from you on occasion? If so, Happy 227th and Vetern Day to you, too.

As for the other, I guess we can agree to disagree as Aqua-Tec says. For every rule, there is an exception. I don't know if my situation is the exception, or your is. But either way, the options have been aired.

Thanks!

 

[Soggy]

Ber Rabbit once bubbled...
They are taught proper weighting procedures while in the pool so they can do it themselves if they need to change equipment.

I know how to do properly weight myself also, but at the risk of ruining a dive, I usually add a couple lbs more than I think I need, because there is no easy formula to weight yourself. The proper way to weight oneself involves going out with a near-empty tank in 15 feet of water and determining how much weight you need to stay neutral. This is very time consuming and only the most hardcore of divers seem to spend the time doing this.

The bottom line is, most divers will not spend the time "properly" weighting themselves...an approximation is usually the closest you can expect. It's one thing to teach idealistically, but it's another to teach unrealistically.

 

[TCDiver1]

Jarhead once bubbled...


Don't I remember seeing a "Semper Fi" from you on occasion? If so, Happy 227th and Vetern Day to you, too.

As for the other, I guess we can agree to disagree as Aqua-Tec says. For every rule, there is an exception. I don't know if my situation is the exception, or your is. But either way, the options have been aired.

Thanks!

Thanks! My time in was short but my family has a long history (eight at last count) of USMC service dating back to an Uncle who was a China Marine. Once you have experienced it, the Semper Fi never seems to leave your blood.

Yes, i can agree to disagree. IMO differing opinions are good. From this instructors point of view, based on experience, i try to error on the side of caution and IMO positive buoyancy at the surface is safer for most new divers, in most situations, given the variables that can exist there.

I'm certainly not saying divers or instructors like Walter who believe otherwise, are not safe. On the contrary, you & Walter seem to be very proficent and safe from what i read on this board. This is where the agree to disagree comes in. From the standpoint of this board i feel it is important for new divers to hear, it's okay to establish buoyancy at the surface if they are more comfortable doing so. This of course assumes they are not significantly overweighted as to need excess buoyancy from their BC.

Ps: did you do a party yesterday? Ours was great, complete with SOS & beer. The bull was really flying!

 

[Jarhead]

gedunk once bubbled...
Once you have experienced it, the Semper Fi never seems to leave your blood.

Agreed!

Did you do a party yesterday? Ours was great, complete with SOS & beer. The bull was really flying!

No, mine was more of a day of quiet reflection and great memories.

On the other: This is my "personal (not for public consumption)philosophy" so read it smiling, I am.

It's a BC, not a PFD. If you're gonna dive, - dive. If your just gonna play the water, leave the scuba gear on the boat. You're alot more "stream-lined" without it.

 

[TCDiver1]

Jarhead once bubbled...

It's a BC, not a PFD. If you're gonna dive, - dive. If your just gonna play the water, leave the scuba gear on the boat. You're alot more "stream-lined" without it.

What are you smiling at dip-*hit? ..... oh wait a minute that was a flashback from the other topic we were talking about .... sorry!

Uncle, uncle! I agree 100% and am smiling loudly, can you hear me?:arrow:

Most of what i'm talking about relates to new divers or divers who don't dive much. Unfortunately you are in the minority related to your dive & play analogy. Most divers i run across want to play while diving, not dive while playing, if you get my drift.

 

[Jarhead]

gedunk once bubbled...
What are you smiling at dip-*hit? ..... oh wait a minute that was a flashback from the other topic we were talking about .... sorry!

Uncle, uncle! I agree 100% and am smiling loudly, can you hear me?:arrow:

Most of what i'm talking about relates to new divers or divers who don't dive much. Unfortunately you are in the minority related to your dive & play analogy. Most divers i run across want to play while diving, not dive while playing, if you get my drift.

LOL!!!