"What if ..?"

[LeadTurn_SD]

Sas,

I think the exchange you and Diver0001 is interesting, partly because you are both expressing valid ideas, but also because the point you make (essentially making the rational decision to avoid a double fatality) is also the point many "rescuers" make.... just a moment before they do something inconsistent with their stated belief, like running into a burning building

I think it is hard for us to know what we would actually do until the time comes.... but compassion and hope are powerful motivators, even for the most rational of those among us

Best wishes.

 

[BabyDuck]

rob, (not really picking on you, anyone can answer) would any situational things matter? would it matter if your buddy were much younger, much older, had children, was single, cared for his/her aging mother, wasn't really a nice person, etc?

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

rob, (not really picking on you, anyone can answer) would any situational things matter? would it matter if your buddy were much younger, much older, had children, was single, cared for his/her aging mother, wasn't really a nice person, etc?

I'm obviously not rob

The obvious answer for me is that it would matter. I have a wife and kids, and I want to see them again....

Having said that, I do have have two "real world" dive saves.

One was a low risk (to me) surface rescue of a near-drowning diver.

The other was a fairly high-risk deep rescue of a narc'ed and non-responsive diver that I grabbed and swam up from depth.

The surface diver I did not know at all, I just happened to be there and saw the problem.... the deep rescue I had just met before the dive.

So even though I say I would do the "rational" thing while sitting here at the computer (don't create a double fatality, save myself if need be), I found that in real life it is VERY hard to leave someone behind. My past history demonstrates I might not do the rational thing.

Best wishes.

 

[Sas]

rob, (not really picking on you, anyone can answer) would any situational things matter? would it matter if your buddy were much younger, much older, had children, was single, cared for his/her aging mother, wasn't really a nice person, etc?

I don't know. I am not sure how things would change if it was a family member or my partner. Anyone else I would think it more rational to leave behind so I would try to, to save myself, but I don't know if I could leave my partner, my brother, my sister or my mother.

I mean I have made very good friends out of some of my buddies, but not enough to die for them (sorry if they happen to read this but I'd expect the same from them towards me ).

Age would be irrelevant to me, as would their maritial status or having children status and all the rest. I don't think just because someone has kids or a spouse, etc, that they deserve their life over a single, childless person. Trying to decide things based on stuff like that is kind of a slippery slope for me in regards to who is more worthy of living - that is impossible to judge.

 

[udtfire]

tie a reel to your buddy and go home big boy rules in the overhead world

 

[mdb]

"Who is more worthy of living" - What are you talking about ???-we all are worthy of living.

You, obviously, think it is OK to leave someone behind, so you can save yourself. "I have made very good friends out of some of my buddies, but not enough to die for them."

We all know clearly, where you stand on the issue.

 

[Sas]

"Who is more worthy of living" - What are you talking about ???-we all are worthy of living.

Exactly my point.

 

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

Fixed that for you

I'd seen the quote from Bill Gaven a while back (thanks boulderjohn for posting it again) and that incident immediately sprang to mind when I read your post Spd 135.

Even the most expert cave and wreck divers can have unforseen problems despite doing everything "right".... not just us lowly sport divers... and in fact I think cavers and wreck divers are MORE likely to face the "end of the world" situation Trace describes, just because of the extreme nature of some of the dives you do.

Best wishes.

If any offense was given it was not meant. My point was that in wreck / cave we tend to have more than one source of gas and more than one reg, more than one light, etc, so that the possibility of a complete failure is low.

The point was that recreational divers tend to have one gas and one reg because that is recreational diving. A failure at this level could be deadly and by reading this, thread, valuable lessons can be learned about taking chances. The whole point of this thread is to make people think. I meant no slight against recreational divers nor do I think that there are not risks in wreck / cave diving. I do feel that the risks are lessened due to exposure and training about what is ahead.

There are many things taught in overhead classes that make sense, once they teach them to you. But for some reason we don't figure these things out on our own. Probably due to the structure of our recreational classes and what they cover. Again, I did not mean to slight anyone.

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

Hi Spd 135,

No, I was not in the least offended, and I actually agree with what you said in your post.

I was just tuggin' on your tail a little because I instantly thought about the Gavin / Bill Main story when Trace began this thread, and again when I read your post, and it was just by chance that boulderjohn posted the story. And there are others like it.... which is of course why overhead divers need the training and correct gear to minimize their risk in that environment. The rules and procedures you guys use today were "written with the blood" of others who went before you.

And I do agree that on the rec side, since there is often no redundancy and much less training, when things go even just little wrong it can get really bad quickly.

Trace's scenario was aimed at the cave or wreck community, but could have easily been tweaked to apply to a typical "rec" scenario as well.

Best wishes.

 

[DaleC]

rob, (not really picking on you, anyone can answer) would any situational things matter? would it matter if your buddy were much younger, much older, had children, was single, cared for his/her aging mother, wasn't really a nice person, etc?

Yes.

Having three kids I recognise the fact that the loss of a parent (with dependant children) would be greater than the loss of a single childless person. Sorry if that offends the childless Anyone who thinks the two deaths would be similar doesn't understand the importance of parents in a childs life.

I have also said before that I feel I have had a good life and lack for nothing in the way of life experiences. I would like to think that I could extend my "accceptable" risk quite a bit to save a child's life so that they too could have the same opportunities.

As a scout leader I often took children into wilderness settings and "assumed" responsability for their safety. In that setting I did carefully think through and decide beforehand that I would place myself at extreme risk to protect them, even if it meant my demise. Fortunately the situation never occured but I feel pretty strongly that I would have stuck to that decision if the opportunity had presented itself.

As for someone being a nice person... I don't know. I do know for a fact that I would not be disposed to overtly risk my life for someone who stupidly put their own at risk.

Again, all of this is with the greatest humility and the recognition that I only know what I "think" I would do.