"What if ..?"

[Sas]

I agree with this. However because of how the OP was worded, people have an issue with accepting that there is always hope that any situation will end positively until it ends otherwise. I believe that once you give up hope, then there is no hope. Until that time, there is hope. Hope does not guarantee a positive outcome but it may be enough to allow people to make the effort to rescue others in what seems to be a dire situation.

Some situations there is no hope. To accept this is not a failure, it is being realistic. I prefer realism over idealism as I think it keeps me safer. Being hopeful all the time is not necessarily a positive feature to have as it can lead to very very stupid decisions.

If you only have enough gas for one person, and there is no other way to get more gas or help, and you're in overhead one or both of you will die. I would rather that I dive with buddies who are practical enough to recognise the point where a decision has to be made rather than cling on to false hope.

 

[boulderjohn]

... and we both found seperate ways out...........together. One of these days I will post the story.

I for one wold be very interested in that post.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Some situations there is no hope. To accept this is not a failure, it is being realistic. I prefer realism over idealism as I think it keeps me safer. Being hopeful all the time is not necessarily a positive feature to have as it can lead to very very stupid decisions.

If you only have enough gas for one person, and there is no other way to get more gas or help, and you're in overhead one or both of you will die. I would rather that I dive with buddies who are practical enough to recognise the point where a decision has to be made rather than cling on to false hope.

I can see where you are coming from and do not necessarily agree however to say "I am willing to risk dying to save my buddy" (i.e. to hope something happens) is not a failure either. I get the impression (maybe I am misinterpereting your posts but I doubt it) that you are unwilling to accept that some people believe that as long as there is air there is hope. You are unwilling to accept that some people would rather do everything possible to save two lives than to just save themselves. I have accepted your position.....maybe it is time you open your mind to other opinions. If you choose not to then carry on....a closed mind is an acceptable thing to waste .

I would rather that I dive with buddies who are practical enough to recognise the point where a decision has to be made rather than cling on to false hope.

I am definitely OK if you and I never get to dive toegther so that we will both be happy. I do not put the same requirements on my dive buddies as you apparently (neither is wrong IMO)......I just ask and expect them to let me know where I stand up front so I can plan accordingly.

 

[Diver0001]

Some situations there is no hope. .

I was trying to find I way to explain how I thought about this but ScubaSteve said it better than I could when he said "some people believe that as long there is air there is hope"

That's essentially how I feel about it too. In fact, I might go a bit further than that because do don't think I would even stop at being out of air. I'd breathe the BCD, make a CESA or even a buoyant ascent etc. ... whatever it took... so I'm pretty sure that I'd only get the impression that there was no more hope if I were OOA and lost in an overhead. Other than that, I'm not prepared to give up, or let my buddy give up, without a big fight.

I think it was you who said you thought the OP was a no-win scenario. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. The scenario reminds me of a dive described by Tom Mount in which they barely made it out alive having "stretched" their air by every means available to them. But they made it out. If he had just checked his gauges and "estimated" (which is the word the OP used) that it wasn't going to work and then just gave up then at least one person would have died without cause.

Sure, I do think that there are some situations that realistically *have* no hope. But I believe there are a great many more situations where the problem was not "having" no hope, but "giving up" the hope.

R..

 

[Cave Diver]

Without going into details, I have had 2 dives where I pursued a diver that I perceived to be in danger. In both cases the divers were unresponsive to signals, below recreational depths and going after them put myself at considerable risk.

In both cases, I was the only person in a position to help and consciously made the decision after evaluating the circumstances. Both resolved without further incident and I feel pretty confident in saying that I would put myself at risk to help someone again.

I think it's a pretty personal decision that most people can theorize on, but until you're actually in that situation you can't say for sure how you'll react.

 

[boulderjohn]

If you go to this site, you can read a story about the lengths some people will go to in a situation such as was described. This was written in response to an accusation that the divers in question had abandoned a doomed buddy. Here is one section of the complete story. The speaker is Bill Gavin.

I was in a very tight downstream siphon and didn’t want anyone behind me. Main and McFaden, who were swimming, had gone to survey about two hundred feet of line that McFaden and I had laid a week or two before. On the day of McFaden’s death I had finished my dive and was on my way out when Bill Main signaled me from the downstream section. George incorrectly (and rather callously) stated that McFaden’s buddy (Main) “left him”. Main had emerged from a low silty area thinking McFaden was right behind him. He turned and waited for McFaden, but McFaden did not come. At this time he had only been waiting a few seconds and did not think there was a problem, but wanted me to hang out just in case. I got a bad feeling and some instinct made me elect to enter the area. I found McFaden within 100 feet, off the line, not moving. I led him out and just as we emerged into clear water he signaled out of gas. Keep in mind, McFaden has been missing for one to two minutes and is already out of gas? I gave him my long hose and I could hear him breathing like a horse and knew he was scared. He grabbed my manifold like a vise and I hit the trigger. We got to a vertical pit and I stopped motoring and started venting my dry suit. Suddenly I realized that even though I was venting as fast as I could we were ascending rapidly. McFaden would not let go of my manifold to vent his suit. Next thing I knew I was pinned like a bug to the ceiling. I couldn't get him to let go of my manifold so I could even turn around. I finally had to use the scooter to pull us back down so we could continue out. During the entire exit, Bill Main had hold of McFaden’s legs, trying to pull him down by getting as negatively buoyant as he could. By the time we got near the entrance I ran out of gas. I was seconds away from passing out when Bill Main starting buddy breathing with me on his short hose. By now Bill had already given his long hose to McFaden. Bill Main never hesitated to share gas with both of us, even if it meant buddy breathing off a short hose. At this point my head was a ball of screaming agony from carbon dioxide build up. I could barely do anything but try to catch my breath. After a minute or so I noticed Bill Main picking his long hose up from the floor. He grabbed my arm and pulled me out of the silted out bedding plane area back into the cave. I was screaming into my/his regulator because I DID NOT want to go back INTO the cave, but he was taking us to clearer water. Off to the left I saw McFaden upside down on the ceiling, pressed there by his dry suit, apparently dead. (The preliminary autopsy report indicated that he had embolised. I would guess that this occurred during the rapid ascent from the pit at 180 feet or during the final ascent across the last room.) Once in clear water, we stabilized our situation, swapped second stages so I would be on Main’s long hose, relocated the line and made our exit. When I broke down my gear later you could take my regulators off the manifold without even closing the valves. I did everything I could for McFaden and so did Bill Main and we both nearly got killed. Make absolutely no mistake - trying to rescue a panicked diver is one of the most dangerous things you can attempt.

I would like to think that my buddy would make that kind of effort for me, and I assure anyone who is tempted to be my buddy that I will make that kind of effort for you.

 

[Sas]

I can see where you are coming from and do not necessarily agree however to say "I am willing to risk dying to save my buddy" (i.e. to hope something happens) is not a failure either. I get the impression (maybe I am misinterpereting your posts but I doubt it) that you are unwilling to accept that some people believe that as long as there is air there is hope.

No not at all. You are misinterpreting my posts. I don't doubt that that is what you think, I just don't agree that this is a good mindset.

You are unwilling to accept that some people would rather do everything possible to save two lives than to just save themselves.

No. I know that some people would. I just think that this can be misguided, and the reason why in the end, there would be two casualties. I see that as a waste.

I have accepted your position.....maybe it is time you open your mind to other opinions. If you choose not to then carry on....a closed mind is an acceptable thing to waste .

What do you mean 'accept' someone's position? I disagree with you, I don't have to 'accept' your position. I don't feel you have accepted my position anymore than I have accepted yours. But it is no big deal that we disagree. This is a forum to discuss ideas and would be boring if no one disagreed.

I am definitely OK if you and I never get to dive toegther so that we will both be happy. I do not put the same requirements on my dive buddies as you apparently (neither is wrong IMO)......I just ask and expect them to let me know where I stand up front so I can plan accordingly.

I would do a nice easy dive with pretty much anyone. In overhead, I am more strict (so I don't end up in a situation as described by the OP) and yea I do have requirements on buddies. If you don't have strict requirements, well to each their own.

I think it was you who said you thought the OP was a no-win scenario. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. The scenario reminds me of a dive described by Tom Mount in which they barely made it out alive having "stretched" their air by every means available to them. But they made it out. If he had just checked his gauges and "estimated" (which is the word the OP used) that it wasn't going to work and then just gave up then at least one person would have died without cause.

It was pretty clear to me from the wording that it is 'no win'. If you do not think that it is, why do we not move on to a discussion then, where it is 'no win'? And you give your thoughts on that? We've discussed various situations and it still amazes me that some people just can't confront the idea that some situations are no win in life.

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

The bottom line here is Trace created a no win scenario. He also caused a lot of thinking. This is something that [-]will, probably, never[/-] should not happen, at least on the cave / wreck side. Due to good equipment and planned redundency a catastrophic gas loss, of all or most, of your breathing supply is very unlikely....

Fixed that for you

I'd seen the quote from Bill Gaven a while back (thanks boulderjohn for posting it again) and that incident immediately sprang to mind when I read your post Spd 135.

Even the most expert cave and wreck divers can have unforseen problems despite doing everything "right".... not just us lowly sport divers... and in fact I think cavers and wreck divers are MORE likely to face the "end of the world" situation Trace describes, just because of the extreme nature of some of the dives you do.

Best wishes.

 

[Diver0001]

...snip... why do we not move on to a discussion then, where it is 'no win'? And you give your thoughts on that?

I don't know. I've never faced a no-win life-and-death scenario where saving my own life meant someone had to die.

If I'm reading you correctly, this is what you want to talk about.

Ok.

I know myself pretty well and in all honesty, I think there's possibility that I'd end up going down fighting unless my buddy had already died first.

That would be my answer as I sit behind my computer with a nice glass of milk.

In reality, I won't know how far I would take it because I've never been faced with the "Kobayashi Maru".

You're not going to like that answer because we're all supposed to say that one victim is better than two, which is true on a 1 + 1 = 2 level.

But if I knew that the only chance of living that my buddy had was for me to stay and fight for him, I would stay and fight for him. No questions, no hesitation, no reservations, and NO calculations. I would just do it. Knowing myself I'd only leave once all the air was used up.

Is that what you're after?

R..

 

[Sas]

Is that what you're after?

R..

Yea that is what I'm after

I know that most people don't know what they will do until they face a situation like that like you've said (and even then the next time might be different if they get out of the first one ok), but it is slightly frustrating that people can't even discuss 'no win' situations here so thanks for doing so.

I do understand why people would go down fighting when one person could have been saved. It goes back to the dangers of hope. Some hope is unfounded and can kill you. I don't know what I would do 100%, if I was in a situation like this. My rational mind absolutely thinks that I should get out of there at all costs to save myself but in a situation there is the irrationality that will come with all the screw ups that have had to happen to get to that point, as well as hope, which changes things. I hope I would be rational and save myself but I can't say for sure that I would be.