"What if ..?"

[ScubaSteve]

So, how does it affect one's thinking if the OOA diver is not at fault but it could be argued that you yourself bear more of the responsibility for the situation?

At no point have I considered fault into my decision to stay and try to get both of us to the surface alive so I do not believe this scenario would make any difference in my chosen path.

 

[piikki]

Another one late to the party. Or maybe not – I was going to respond early on but I got irritated by the level of denial and refusal to even imagine the OP’s scenario. Instead of pressing the Yes or No there were dozens of buts - of how this would and has never happened or how it really was not quite how it appeared.

To me it sounds scary that one cannot even think that there might ever come a point where one truly believes that the only rational solution is to leave buddy. (Whether or not this decision is made in the best state of mind can be argued but all we need to know is that at that moment one considers it to be so). Someone asked how many have discussed these issues with buddies, and reading this thread I started feeling that I might be an oddball since I have.

I am with the crowd who says that you can’t know. First of all, I fear that when things get really hectic, math will have already gone out of the window. Maybe I would realize the moment when I only have enough gas for myself. Maybe it would be blessing not to notice. I would like to think that I would be able to leave my buddy if I had to. However, I am afraid I would never be able to. I would not be able to live with it. I consider this a personal weakness that I need to work with because I rather my head runs the biz during the dives than my heart.

 

[Diver0001]

I am with the crowd who says that you can’t know.

I think I can be pretty sure how I would respond.

Although I've never been in a situation nearly as intense as the OP suggests, I have made a rescue that was pretty darned risky.

I think I've described it before. Without going in to a lot of detail, a buddy and I were descending to 40 metres along a wall for a dive. Another diver from a group just ahead of us suddenly got in trouble and started sinking along the wall. If I'm not mistaken the wall is deep enough at the bottom right there that he would have been dead if he had sunk to the bottom.

I saw it happen, looked at my buddy and within a 3 count I was after him. I finally pinned him against the wall at a depth where I tried looking at my gauges but couldn't even really grasp (let alone remember) what they were telling me. I was so narced that I didn't even know what to do next until my buddy arrived on the scene thumbing up with a great deal of conviction and intensity. I figured his idea was as least as good as wondering what to do, so we ascended.

We got our guy back into the shallows and breathed off all of our gas before being forced to surface and hoping for the best. After all, the tables didn't have a column for what we had just done and the dive computer was something that we had only heard about at that point..... all bets were off....

None of us got bent (and the guy promised me a beer that I never got!)

Rationally speaking that was a pretty stupid thing to do for my own safety. Maybe I got lucky and didn't die trying to save someone but on the other hand, it *does* show me the kind of person I am. (which is where this story started... can you or can't you know for sure).

I think you can safely say there are two kinds of people in this world. Ones who would run *in* to a burning building to save others and ones who wouldn't.

I would run in. I know for sure.

R..

 

[piikki]

I think you can safely say there are two kinds of people in this world. Ones who would run *in* to a burning building to save others and ones who wouldn't.

Generally, I would agree about there being people who would run in and people who wouldn't. However, in this instance the question was more like: "Would you run into burning building to die with others?"
You are making the decision to run or stay in the burning building at a moment when you already truly believe/see you cannot rescue anyone else nor be able to run back out yourself if you make the attempt.

This is not semantics, at least not for me. If people just do it blindly in any situation, then it's just plain stupid. Some evaluation must be involved.

 

[ScubaSteve]

......."Would you run into burning building to die with others?".......

I would think the better way to phrase this would be "Would you run around inside a burning building saving people to the point you are very likely to die or would you run out to safety on your own?"

 

[piikki]

I would think the better way to phrase this would be "Would you run around inside a burning building saving people to the point you are very likely to die or would you run out to safety on your own?"

True dat

I just did not think that the 'going in for a rescue' was great as we had already established from OP that rescue was not going to happen

I think my example still picks on the fact that nobody is coming out alive with that choice

 

[ScubaSteve]

I know what you mean .

 

[Diver0001]

"Would you run into burning building to die with others?"
.

The problem with this is that when you make the decision to try, you can't know for sure how it will end. It's a leap of faith... a leap of confidence.

If you want certainties then you shouldn't try.

Running a risk always involves both the chance of success and the chance of failure. If you get too focused (or paralized) by that then you are bound to fail even if you could have succeeded.

R..

 

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

The bottom line here is Trace created a no win scenario. He also caused a lot of thinking. This is something that will, probably, never happen, at least on the cave / wreck side. Due to good equipment and planned redundency a catastrophic gas loss, of all or most, of your breathing supply is very unlikely.

The readers here, that are strictly recreational divers, can learn the most from the information that is in this thread. With a single gas supply and a few daring feats, this could likely happen to a recreational diver and their buddy, by wandering too deep or a little too far into a place they are not trained for. If you are going deep, learn to use a stage. Put a bottle and reg at your safety stop. There are many things that can be done, but you have to learn about them. Dying is bad, but a case of DCI or worse, a bad CNS hit may be worse than dying. Bolting to the surface is not an option unless too many things go wrong at the same time, which in real life is highly unlikely. Poor planning, of course, can create this situation where too many things go wrong.

Our survival instincts are very strong and if we really got ourselves into a scenario as described, our loved ones would likely come first when we knew there was no chance to help further. I don't doubt a few would try til the very end and even die trying. Again, in this impossible situation, it was way too far to swim out. Or, for instance, maybe a large piece of debis trapped a diver in a wreck and their gas supply was very low and yours was marginal. Most of us would not share gas till we both died. Most of us would hope we could get help and return before it was too late. No matter what our plans are each of us has a strong instinct that pushes us to survive. This isn't about cutting and running at the first sign of a problem. It never was as Trace was specific about the situation. Anything that could have been done was, and the options were runnning out. Ovbiously the divers planned poorly and were both going to have to pay for those choices. By taking time to "What If" we all can take a look at what we do under the water and if changes need to be made.

A few years ago I was in a total siltout that could have gone really bad. I did have plenty of gas and when my buddy was lost I decided to find him, and lead, or bring him out (If he was deceased) as I had a lot of gas before the siltout. Fortunately he followed his training and I mine, and we both found seperate ways out...........together. One of these days I will post the story.

Let's hope that this discussion will show other divers the importance of gas monitoring, redundancy, further training and the dangers of failing to do these.

Thanks Trace.

 

[ScubaSteve]

I agree with this. However because of how the OP was worded, people have an issue with accepting that there is always hope that any situation will end positively until it ends otherwise. I believe that once you give up hope, then there is no hope. Until that time, there is hope. Hope does not guarantee a positive outcome but it may be enough to allow people to make the effort to rescue others in what seems to be a dire situation.

The problem with this is that when you make the decision to try, you can't know for sure how it will end. It's a leap of faith... a leap of confidence.

If you want certainties then you shouldn't try.

Running a risk always involves both the chance of success and the chance of failure. If you get too focused (or paralized) by that then you are bound to fail even if you could have succeeded.

R..