"What if ..?"

[Trace Malinowski]

On one level, I agree Trace.... but on another, the purely physiological one, it's different.

At altitude, there simply isn't enough O2 in the gas you are breathing to sustain life, your cells are dying one by one, albeit a slow death. During a dive, your body is vibrant and ripe with life giving oxygen, just when that oxygen runs out you have a more tumultuous ending.

True that. But, my thinking was that climbers know that they don't have the physical ability under those conditions to always help and sometimes climbers have left those in their own teams because they believed they just couldn't save them.

Both sports have these things in common:
1. Limited time
2. Limited oxygen or gas supply
3. Mental faculties may be affected by altitude or depth
4. Not every climber uses O2 and not every diver uses He
5. Heavily dependent upon equipment
6. Environmental factors play an important role (white-outs & silt-outs)
7. Both are done individually or as a team
8. Wide variety of philosophies exist in each

A climber without oxygen on Everest may be as unable to provide the most simple help to a buddy as a diver on deep air.

 

[AndyNZ]

True that. But, my thinking was that climbers know that they don't have the physical ability under those conditions to always help and sometimes climbers have left those in their own teams because they believed they just couldn't save them.

It certainly happens.... but then, people walk past someone in the street who is clearly in need of first aid!! Some people are just like that, others aren't.

 

[Bronson]

Wow! tough spot to be in. best to plan and dive your plan. not sure what i would do in this situation but i would think that my buddy woud be on his own. No sense in both of us dying because of one person's supidity.

 

[DaleC]

It certainly happens.... but then, people walk past someone in the street who is clearly in need of first aid!! Some people are just like that, others aren't.

That's a good point that was sort of brought up earlier. Many people "percieve" they may come to harm themselves in some way so they refuse to aid (like bystanders afraid of being sued at an accident scene). I have seen it and it deeply disturbs me. In Traces example, which is quite simple in a way, my biggest question is when does one come to the point where they pull the plug. How hard does some one fight to save both before giving up to save one.

I said I would be concerned with a teammate who point blank says "I'd be out of there" because I think they might be more predisposed to bail early. In the military/police/firefighting/ems fields there is the caveat to always take care of ones self but there is also an underlying creedo that those around will go to extraordinary efforts to render aid to a fellow.

Of course, that's just what I think might happen. People act in contrary ways all the time.

Also, why are we assuming it's the teammates fault for running out of gas. What if your scooter crapped out and he lent you his and swam through because he was a better swimmer, thus using more gas than you? Or what if he dumped his stage first and you carried yours further (part of a predetermined plan) and thus you had more available gas to breath?
When planning a longer cave dive is it "our" gas in a dive plan or yours and mine? At which point does one nulify the team concept, when it doesn't benefit the individual?

 

[AndyNZ]

In Traces example, which is quite simple in a way, my biggest question is when does one come to the point where they pull the plug. How hard does some one fight to save both before giving up to save one.

I think different people will have a different point at which they bail. The people walking past the person having a heart attack on the street may bail as soon as they see the SPG, flick their light off, pull the reg out, switch the right post off.... whatever it takes.

Others may never reach that point at all, and somewhere in between the extremes are a whole of bunch of different decision points.

Personally, I am in two minds about the "you're on your own attitude"... if that is what is agreed up front, and you are essentially two solo divers in the same cave then that's ok by me. But then, the situation as Trace explains it wouldn't arise - you probably wouldn't get the one diver donating gas in the first place.... it's mine, mine I tell you!!

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

What we only touched on, but what we should cover more deeply, are possible strategies for getting out alive, either alone, or with a buddy team in the bleak scenario I originally posted?
...

That would be great Trace.

My question to you (and the rest of the folks reading this) would be if they had ever determined what their most efficient, economical swimming pace was? (I've always guessed mine was a kick & relaxed long glide, but don't really know).

What I mean is: What pace, kick style, swimming position, etc., will move me the fastest and furthest for the least amount of gas consumed? How far can I get per 100psi with technique "A" versus thechnique "B"? Will a long "glide" help reduce gas consumption, or will it decrease speed too much and increase transit time, thus increasing overall gas used?

So many questions that I have no answers to

Best wishes.

 

[mdb]

I think different people will have a different point at which they bail. The people walking past the person having a heart attack on the street may bail as soon as they see the SPG, flick their light off, pull the reg out, switch the right post off.... whatever it takes.

I was going to lunch at a McDonald's, crowded parking lot, the typical lunchtime crowd. A woman collapsed in the parking lot. I started CPR. She was starting to foam at the mouth. People were walking around me to get their cheeseburger and fries. I yelled for someone to call for EMS. The paramedics finally showed up. She survived. It was a wake up call on how folks react-or don't.

Andy you are right about different people with different responses. Maybe part of this ongoing thread is just about that. Who are you diving with and are you clear about any emergency procedures etc.

For me; I've been primarily a solo diver for years. I am very interested in hearing the responses from divers who have actually been in such situations.

Your experience on the mountains and in the water is very good information.

 

[Thalassamania]

MDB,

Good save, good job.

Unfortunatly, your experience is not unique, people are paralyzed by emergencies. If it ever happens again consider not yelling for "someone" to call 911, rather try, "you ... in the green sweatshirt, call 911 ... do you understand?" When singled out and identified that way, people are much more likely to comply.

 

[Mike Boswell]

What if you are in a team of two divers, your exit from a wreck or a cave was somehow delayed, your buddy runs out of gas, and you see that your SPG shows only enough gas, (in your estimation) to get one diver out?

What would you do?

It's an interesting question you have asked, and very thought provoking. If you were indeed in this situation, BOTH divers have badly screwed up, IMO. FWIW:

1. Nobody knows what they would do in a situation like that.
2. You could never be "certain" that you could not both survive.
3. There are much worse things than dying: Living with profound regret might be one.
4. Putting your own life on the line for others is not unusual. Many people do it.
5. If you are not prepared to give your life, why are you risking it in the first place?
6. What is the point of buddy diving if you plan to bail out when you're most needed?

 

[Mike Boswell]

MDB,

Good save, good job.

Unfortunatly, your experience is not unique, people are paralyzed by emergencies. If it ever happens again consider not yelling for "someone" to call 911, rather try, "you ... in the green sweatshirt, call 911 ... do you understand?" When singled out and identified that way, people are much more likely to comply.

Good point, and in addition, you say "Come back and tell me what they said."