What if you need to use some of that 500 psi contigency reserve?

[Gombessa]

You can't be serious. There's just no way this can be legit, its just WAY too far out there. Comical? Definetly. Good advice? Hardly.

And where on earth did you get your lifeguard training? A crackerjack box? NO WHERE in my lifeguard training were we told to hold someone down until they submit. Is this UFC all of a sudden? Horrible, horrible idea that will get you sued at a minimum an sent to prison at the worst.

...!

Yeah, strangely it seems panicked swimmers don't "submit" when submerged, they flail until they drown.

 

[DandyDon]

DanyDon, Thanks for an entertaining thread and I think it is a worthwhile discussion especially for new divers. When I was new I had the same concern, gotta come up with 500PSI. Then an experienced diver explained and showed me how long 500PSI lasts in the shallows and to not let it worry me so much. Since then I have not worried about 1 bit, plus with proper gas management I don't have to now either.

Thanks

It's been enlightening for me. I've been coming back to the boat with 500 psi plus a full pony. Altho I work at safety better than I used to, this is a first for me to feel like one of the more prudent. I think my home bud and I may work on some lower pressure ascents on our next practice run, ending with 300 in calm waters. Then in the 4 ft area, get them down to 100 psi and see how well they still inflate the BC, as well as our usual oral inflate drill and prepare to ditch drill. We don't actually ditch in that practice hole as it's 84 ft deep with a silt bottom.

You can't be serious. There's just no way this can be legit, its just WAY too far out there. Comical? Definetly. Good advice? Hardly.

And where on earth did you get your lifeguard training? A crackerjack box? NO WHERE in my lifeguard training were we told to hold someone down until they submit. Is this UFC all of a sudden? Horrible, horrible idea that will get you sued at a minimum an sent to prison at the worst.

...!

Yeah, strangely it seems panicked swimmers don't "submit" when submerged, they flail until they drown.

You may have missed the Mod Post requesting this not be turned into a rescue thread hijack?? :no That discussion was closed here...

 

[MikeFerrara]

In real life people who are drowning panic and do really stupid things.

That's why we give them air before they start drowning.

For those of you who don't know what a Public Safety Diver is, find out! These people serve the community and many of them are volunteers!

Have you checked out our Public Safety Diver forum? Most of know what a Public Safety Diver is.

Yep some of them are volunteers. While there are some well equiped and well trained teams, if you take a look at teams around the country, you'll see how many of them are made up of novice divers who are VERY lucky that they don't get called out very often.

But, what's your point.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Captain, thanks for the post! Let say I find this very interesting and I am amazed at the attitudes especially about ones own safety! I must say I have read here about people expecting out of air divers to be "Calm" and well trained! I think they need to learn about the story of the Scorpion and the Turtle! In real life people who are drowning panic and do really stupid things. I am a YMCA WSI and was a full time Life Guard and the Aquatics Director For The California Polytechnic University at Pomona for three years! I am here to discuss and help because I am passionate about SCUBA and every aspect of it!

BTW that's why I do the! And I know it gets a few excited! LOL I have dealt with people for many years who put form over substance and they come out here and you get to see who they are! Some just act as if the were kicked in the head once too many times! "Let a man be known by his works" heard that some place! I am here to exclaim my love for all things SCUBA!

Do I expect you to "See the Light"? No! Do I hope a small portion sinks in and makes you think? Yes! But what I hope most of all is Divers keep diving safely and new divers continue to dive and interest their friends. I want them to have confidence that it is a safe activity with basic knowledge and they can take it as fare as they want! I want them to love and enjoy the activity as much or more than I do!

You really seem to be contradicting yourself again. On one hand you say you want all these new divers and what a "safe" activity it is and on the other you say how dangerous it is to donate a little gas.

I get the impression that your view point is skewed by all the resort diving you do with divers who are "unknown quantities" where it really isn't all that safe.

Your expression of that view point seems to be a combination of the cliches spewed by the agencies combined with the experiences that result from diving in an "unsafe" manor.

This sport can be "safe" but that "safety" isn't inherant in the activity. It's a result of knowledge, skill and training. If you dive in a team that's adequately prepared for the dive at hand, the risks go way down precisely because each diver has adequate gas reserves and the skills to share that gas. Nobody will run out of gas because they are too stupid to plan their gas supply or monitor it. The preperation enables you to manage unforseen problems and take them in stride because they have been reduced to nothing more than a minor inconvenience.

I think, the answer to your concerns aren't to refuse to donate gas or to drown a buddy so they are easier to manage. The answer is to train to a level where problems can be managed and to dive with others who have done the same.

 

[SlowRain]

I hope I can contribute something here that touches on not only the subject, but also some of the tangents it has taken. Forgive any "long winded" ramblings..

I am new to the board...but not to diving. I hope it doesn't sound like blowing my own horn, but it probably is good to qualify comments with some sort of demonstrated experience level. I have been diving since I was 16, and am now 50+. Needless to say I have watched over the last 30+ years the amazing (and positive) encroachment of technology into the sport, as well as the changes to how the sport is carried out and taught because of new-found knowledge. Does anyone remember having to be able to swim a mile before even being considered for open water training? Needless to say that isn't a requirement these days.

I have taught (SSI Dive Control Specialist Instructor #389, my instructor was MI #7, Hal Watts, yes, THAT Hal Watts) and have nitrox and trimix certifications as well as a graduate of the Army scuba school down in the Keys. From 1978 to 1989 I was a police officer in the pacific northwest, and 7 of those years was a member of the department dive team. Our primary function was the recovery of evidence that was disposed of in Puget Sound, however we also functioned in a search and recovery capacity. I love diving and thought being on the dive team would be another way to extend my experience (it did) but as far as the "romance" believe me, you quickly learned there was none. A great deal of our dives were in someone's horse pond looking for a child that drowned or something similar. I remember one where we were tied to a line tender on the shore who would pull 4' of line each pass so we would not miss an area, because my buddy and I had our hands locked on each other's BC straps, and we couldn't see each other. The search was by feeling by hand...not by sight.

Frankly our policy about shared air was rather emphatic on the dive team. If your buddy is having issues, you share. That was based on the fact that you had to be, frankly, a hell of a diver to even be considered to be on the dive team, and what very few out of air situations we had were due exclusively to equipment problems...not because someone was not watching their gauges and ran out. Out of air situations were something we drilled on EVERY training dive. It became second nature to us. If you didn't agree with that policy it was a very simple choice, you didn't dive on the dive team.

Myself and one other officer were also responsible for investigation of dive related fatalities. I did 11...and ALL OF THEM except one were due to someone diving who had not been trained or certified...and was lent equipment by a "friend". The one where the diver was certified was a diver who had just moved to the area from a lifetime in Hawaii, bought a drysuit, immediately did a 90' dive his first time with it and between currents in the Sound (which he wasn't used to) the cold water (which he again hadn't experienced) and the differences in operating a drysuit, he went into panic and had an embolism when dropping his weight belt in an attempt to do an emergency surface. (Please, if you buy a drysuit and never have dove one, go easy with it to start with and if possible get some training in using it). In all fatalities we had strict policies we followed, including but not limited to, a complete analysis of the breathing gas by the University of Washington, test diving of the deceased's equipment in the same spot and conditions (tide conditions, time of day, etc) where the fatality occurred, and complete disassembly and check of the BC, regulator, cylinder and cylinder valve.

As far as public safety divers. I am sure there are some groups that are probably very proficient, and my hats off to anyone who wants to donate that kind of time. The group that existed where I worked scared the living daylights out of me. As I said, I am sure there are probably groups in the USA that are very very good, but these guys were fanatics about wanting to participate with the Police Dive Team. I learned a long time ago that when someone gets to the point of fanatical viewpoints, they are probably someone to generally avoid in my mind. Long story short, in meeting with their group, it was rapidly apparent that most of the membership were skilled at the level of still having to focus the majority of their attention on their diving, and would not be able to function effectively with what we were demanding of divers in terms of ability, that was being able to dive safely and effectively and be able to carry out an assignment at the same time. That plus if the police use you in that capacity, then you are held to the same standard of evidence handling, chain of custody, etc etc as a trained police officer, not to mention us now taking responsibility for their liability. In short...no...we did not use them and in fact didn't want them around.

So...500 psi? I usually do have that left when I finish. As far as invading that space? I have no problem whatsoever going in there if the circumstances dictate I must. In an out of air situation I am going to give my dive buddy my primary, I will go to my secondary, or in the event I am low on gas, I will use a pony bottle that I carry as my backup. The pony is for me...not the buddy. I will control the ascent of the out of air diver, as I would expect them to do the reverse unless we decide otherwise. In any event, I don't have any problem getting out of the water with less than 500 psi if it was because I had to give my buddy breathing gas. 500 is a target, and granted I try and hit it, but the funny thing is I remember when I learned we didn't even have spg's!

I totally agree with MikeFerrara as he hit it right on the nose. To be responsible (in my mind) you train to a level where problems are anticipated and can be managed. I love to dive, and am currently in a situation where pretty much everytime I dive it is with someone I have never dove with before. I will ALWAYS run through out of air/equipment failure procedures before we get in the water. I want to know exactly what to expect from them and what they can expect from me. If we are going to be diving together a lot, like a week on a liveaboard, I even go through the drill underwater with the person on a couple of dives just as a refresher. If I feel like that diver is a risk, I will politely decline from buddying with them. If we are going to be doing something deep, i.e. trimix, we WILL run out of air drills in the water before going down. No exception...I want you to know me and I want to know you before I get to 180' and find out we have a problem we can't deal with. Granted now we are in a different arena, and I would expect a buddy to have redundant regulators on their bottom mix gas, etc.

I think it was Vince Lombardi who said "How you practice is how you play" and if that isn't true in diving, I don't know what could be.

 

[Bob Vincent]

1. Pay for a tank thats not empty for a VIP ... no way! As long as it shows around 50-100 psi. They want proof theres gas still in them, so they know water has not entered the bottle.

2. Its not a good idea to run that low on gas, if something happens and lets say you can't board the boat for awhile and your in 4 are 5ft seas it's nice to have the reg breathing gas. Yes I have a snorkel but the reg in my opinion is a better choice.

3. On charters you usually end up with AL80's and around a 3000 fill. I surface with around 600 - to 1000 and usually the last to exit the water. A few charters ask for a 500 to 1000 psi when you exit. Others a combo an example such as 600psi at least are no more than 45 minutes.

4. When I dive with my steels - LP80's/2400+10 pumped to appx 28 to 2900 I have alot of air for students are rec diving. Once in awhile I'll get 2 dives off of one bottle. Take them to 200 - 300 psi. That usually means hitting the 15ft mark with appx 500 - 600 and being in no hurry.

5. When responsible for others I still follow the 1/3's rule.

It's not a good filling when your hose goes limp!!!!!!!!

 

[Bob Vincent]

SloRain I'm sure your a very safe and a great diver. But this section is for generally new divers are close to it. Search and recovery in dark water is kind of out of the realm here. It's kind of the KISS theory keep it simple st....

I don't think someone that isn't experienced and trained in dark water should be in dark water. It's not romantic add a few ATM's and it gets worse. Post that in a Professional room not in a general pg-13 room.

Talking about running out of air. The thing is, military training and harassment training are long gone. As it should be.

 

[seaducer]

I've gone below the 500 PSI mark a few times. Always though I exited the safety stop with at least as much gas as I planned to have at that time. Shore diving in Bonaire, in 5-10 feet of water there was still plenty to look at, so I burned the tank down on the way in, nice and slow. I think how much air you should surface with is entirely variable based on the dive site, experience of your buddy, and potential conditions. If I were to dive off the coast of NJ with an in-experienced diver, I would probably want to plan the dive to hang at 15 feet with at least 1000 PSI. In that case cold dark water adds stress and other potential problems, and a new diver is more likely to need help than a more experienced diver. On top of that the surface conditions can change very quickly, with rough seas or high currents picking up within minutes. Note that 1000 PSI is what I plan to have before I get wet. Once on the dive I may elect to leave the bottom sooner. Other conditions dictate other plans. I think the most obvious statement here is to have a plan, and stick with it. Having enough air to share with your buddy should be part of your plan. Enlighteningly also a bang stick to ward off those OOA divers that might kill us all. But even solo divers need to have enough gas at the end of the dive to deal with any potential problems. I thought this was common sense?

As far as getting water in the tank, so far as I can understand the physics, as long as the pressure in the tank is greater than the pressure outside the tank, nothing should be able to get in. 50 PSI is enough to keep everything out at depths over 33 feet. I think even the wicking effect will not work in pressure different environments, and in any case it doesn't apply to scuba equipment.

 

[Papa_Bear]

You really seem to be contradicting yourself again. On one hand you say you want all these new divers and what a "safe" activity it is and on the other you say how dangerous it is to donate a little gas.

I get the impression that your view point is skewed by all the resort diving you do with divers who are "unknown quantities" where it really isn't all that safe.

Your expression of that view point seems to be a combination of the cliches (Clichéd) spewed by the agencies combined with the experiences that result from diving in an "unsafe" manor.

This sport can be "safe" but that "safety" isn't inherant (inherent) in the activity. It's a result of knowledge, skill and training. If you dive in a team that's adequately prepared for the dive at hand, the risks go way down precisely because each diver has adequate gas reserves and the skills to share that gas. Nobody will run out of gas because they are too stupid to plan their gas supply or monitor it. The preperation (Preparation) enables you to manage unforseen (Unforeseen) problems and take them in stride because they have been reduced to nothing more than a minor inconvenience.

I think, the answer to your concerns aren't to refuse to donate gas or to drown a buddy so they are easier to manage. The answer is to train to a level where problems can be managed and to dive with others who have done the same.

MF you the queen of quote! You don't seem to get it! Every activity including going to the john has risk! It is a safe activity as I have said many times given the correct information. I love the fact that it seems to bother you that I have dive experience around the world and in "Resort Locations" that you seem to have little experience with! I am a California diver friend! Full Cave certified, Rescue 1 Public Safety Diver, with over 4100 dives! So I will never convince you that diving is safe because it must not be for you! Sorry you have such a jaded opinion about our sport!

What you have missed is my observation that your air is your air and that weather you share it or not is your call. Weather you will use it all up or be on the boat with 1000psi Or weather you will risk everything to save someone, it is still your call! If you are trained to handle a panicked diver then fine, it is your call, but for most that is the biggest risk in diving! It can as with swimming make an easy safe swim and turn it deadly.

I know and I am trained for just about every situation, but each is different, and you never know what you will do until you are there and access the situation based on the circumstances! What you do under one condition may not be right under the next!

But for you to tell me I am clichéd and spewing anything but my opinion is rude and childish. If you can't dive safe don't put that on others unless you have statistics to show that all the millions of "Resort" dives are causing deaths at a higher rate than highly trained divers. It seems to me that the higher you go into tech and cave the higher the risk!???? So where is all your fear coming from? The Paper? Radio? TV? Or your opinion?

I know of no one who died because they had 400psi in their tank! Unless the were panicked by the fear of bringing back less?

So MF lets agree to disagree and you dive your way and I will dive mine! When asked I will continue to tell new divers "Diving is a safe sport" otherwise a lot of parents are guilty of negligence for giving SCUBA classes to the Kids!

 

[SparticleBrane]

Honestly, I can't believe some of the crap that's being spewed in this thread. If it weren't dangerous, it'd be funny.

I know of no one who died because they had 400psi in their tank!

I seem to remember a DAN accident report of someone who died with "400 psi" in their tank, yet they ran out of air...because the SPG read 400psi at 0psi...