What if you need to use some of that 500 psi contigency reserve?

[Web Monkey]

ns" that you seem to have little experience with! I am a California diver friend! Full Cave certified, Rescue 1 Public Safety Diver, with over 4100 dives!

Which Public Safety department lets you dive on their team knowing that you refuse to share air with other divers?

What you have missed is my observation that your air is your air and that weather you share it or not is your call.

That's a fascinating opinion, but would probably land you in prison if someone came to you for air and drowned because you refused to share even though you had plenty and were fully trained in the procedure.

Terry

 

[Jorbar1551]

I come up with 500 if not more. Sometimes, i'll do a surface swim back to land/boat and use the air in my tank as my "snorkel" if i dont have one

 

[Papa_Bear]

Which Public Safety department lets you dive on their team knowing that you refuse to share air with other divers?

That's a fascinating opinion, but would probably land you in prison if someone came to you for air and drowned because you refused to share even though you had plenty and were fully trained in the procedure.

Terry

Not hard to find out! I am proud of my service and never let anyone drown on my watch! And are you a lawyer now? I don't think so! It is the responsibility of each diver to manage and monitor their air! Not mine, not a DM, not your Mother! It is yours! I learned to dive when we didn't have gages! When the unbalanced reg got hard to breath you had a couple hundred psi and you surfaced! Again no one ever drowned from running out of air with 400psi in their tank! And it is still my air! I think it was Marty Snydermen in Dive Training Magazine to para phrase "At the end of the day I am going home It is not my responsibility give anyone my air or rescue them!" So I guess he is another poorly trained diver? I know we live in a feel good world these days, but you have to draw the line somewhere! I am still waiting for all the stats of all the dead divers who ran out of air underwater? Most drownings happen on the surface not under the water and most underwater drownings are due to panic not out of air! So before you convict someone know your facts!

 

[peterbj7]

This goes way beyond diving, but in some jurisdictions you are regarded as culpable if you have the skills, experience and opportunity to intervene to prevent someone's death or serious injury, but without good justification you elect not to. This area of law is evolving, but it is risky to assume that "you are an island".

 

[DandyDon]

Uh, if I may suggest...

I don't give a rat's *** whether the law requires it or not. I will allow anyone who needs air to grab mine without asking, and I make that known on the boat.

Regardless of what laws may require or courts may decide later, that seems like the responsible position for any decent diver. I'd prefer to not even be in the vicinity of anyone so self serving as to not feel that way.

Unlike some pony bottle divers, mine is always on and ready. I advise anyone listening to grab that second stage or the yellow on coming from my back gas, I don't care - I'll understand and will cooperate. After that point, I'll evaluate the situation and chase down my buddy who should have noticed by now if needed, start a slow ascent with stops, whatever seems indicated.

Two other differences for me that I try to explain to any who listen...
1-The second stage in my mouth is a manta wing and does not leave my mouth as I don't want to risk losing my dental work - they can have either of the other two; and
2-My pony does not leave my BC - I go where it goes.

TY

 

[Papa_Bear]

Why wouldn't you just hand your pony to the person and make a safe ascent? Your thinking seems a little flawed! And not once did I ever say I wouldn't save some one and have a number of times! But it is my choice! It is my air! And my judgment and that's how you don't waste a life! The life you save might be your own! I have counseled people who said "If I would have only" My answer is always "Better one life lost than two!" I hope non of them are reading your posts! Guilt is something suffered by the living!

 

[DandyDon]

Why wouldn't you just hand your pony to the person and make a safe ascent?
Your thinking seems a little flawed!

'Cause I don't want to...

And not once did I ever say I wouldn't save some one and have a number of times!

Ok, fine. I didn't say you did; some here may have thought that, but fine, ok, ty.

But it is my choice! It is my air! And my judgment and that's how you don't waste a life! The life you save might be your own!

Ok. I would use different wording to state along those lines, but ok.

I have counseled people who said "If I would have only" My answer is always "Better one life lost than two!" I hope non of them are reading your posts! Guilt is something suffered by the living!

I agree. Better one life than both. Do not forfeit yourself just so he doesn't die alone. At the time of the emergency, of course, you/I must decide in an instant what is prudent in our actions. In my limited diving experiences, I have had to make a few now decisions. I'm sure that mine would be different from the larger number you have had, in direct comparison you might not see mine as any big deal, but they were to me at the moment. So far, did ok. In my personal code, I will put my life and well being on the line in an instant to attempt to save another if I feel confident that I am not simply forfeiting my own as I was raised that way with cow work, farming before OSHA got involved, etc. As a pre-teen once I climbed the fence rather than face a wild bull who'd just trampled my father, but it was the right to do at the moment as I knew I had no chance of turning that charging bull, there was no point in doing so as he was escaping, and I had to save my butt so I could tend to my dad ASAP with full capabilities. Didn't have time for Stop, Breath, Think, Act those days - you just did your best immediately, but I generally did good without getting hurt much. The bull passed, I got dad to the house so mom could take him in for stitches, I went back and loaded the bull the way we should have in the first place and drove to the auction with him before dad could come back and get his shotgun out. That was over 40 years ago; a 12 yr old could drive a bobtail cow truck to a nearby town here without being bothered then, here.

Oh, back to why I don't hand my pony off? I bought it, paid significantly for the tank, sling, spg (I did win the reg, but it'd still cost me to replace it); I have since cared well for it, had it all serviced, carried it on trips, had it filled, carried on 200+ dives when I didn't need it, etc; and I am not turning it loose to some diver who might drop it at the ladder then say "Thanks for the help. I didn't really need it, but thanks. Sorry about your lost pony. I can't pay for it now, but let me give you my phone email." I will let him have all he wants of it as we search briefly for my buddy then start a prudent ascent with us holding each others BCs, and my buddy better be noticing or easy to find or he'll need to do his ascent alone. If all that works, fine; if he fights me, he loses until he is ready to do it my way.

Now, we have been asked by a Mod to not turn this into a rescue hijacked thread. I do hope you, your critics and I can all now cooperate with that request, take it to another thread if desired, and go back to the original subject.

TY

 

[MikeFerrara]

MF you the queen of quote!

the quote freature is a useful tool. Your posts would make more sense if you learned to use it.

You don't seem to get it! Every activity including going to the john has risk! It is a safe activity as I have said many times given the correct information. I love the fact that it seems to bother you that I have dive experience around the world and in "Resort Locations" that you seem to have little experience with!

It doesn't bother me that you dive at resorts though it sounds like you assume that's where everone else dives when you give advice.

I am a California diver friend! Full Cave certified, Rescue 1 Public Safety Diver, with over 4100 dives! So I will never convince you that diving is safe because it must not be for you! Sorry you have such a jaded opinion about our sport!

You don't have to convince me of anything. As I said, diving can be done safely. My opinion that it often isn't done safely comes from the trouble I've seen other people get into. Seems like you folks in CA have plenty of trouble in the regard too.

If you are trained to handle a panicked diver then fine, it is your call, but for most that is the biggest risk in diving! It can as with swimming make an easy safe swim and turn it deadly.

Do you have any data to support that claim? I thought you said that diving is safe?

If you can't dive safe don't put that on others unless you have statistics to show that all the millions of "Resort" dives are causing deaths at a higher rate than highly trained divers.

Why do you need to have millions dead to advocate things like gas management and being proficient at skills like sharing gas?

So where is all your fear coming from? The Paper? Radio? TV? Or your opinion?

What fear? You're the one who seems to be afraid to donate gas.

LOL, but I don't watch TV and you won't see/hear anything regarding diving on the radio or in the papers around here except when someone manages to get hurt or killed.

So MF lets agree to disagree and you dive your way and I will dive mine! When asked I will continue to tell new divers "Diving is a safe sport" otherwise a lot of parents are guilty of negligence for giving SCUBA classes to the Kids!

No, the parents are only guilty of believing the sales pitch they hear from the dive shops and agencies. Sending children out diving with parents who are novice divers is something else that I've seen go wrong and want no part of.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I think it was Marty Snydermen in Dive Training Magazine to para phrase "At the end of the day I am going home It is not my responsibility give anyone my air or rescue them!" So I guess he is another poorly trained diver?

That's the dive magazines for you.

I know we live in a feel good world these days, but you have to draw the line somewhere! I am still waiting for all the stats of all the dead divers who ran out of air underwater?

I'm still waiting for the stats that shows how dangerous it is to donate air.

Most drownings happen on the surface not under the water and most underwater drownings are due to panic not out of air! So before you convict someone know your facts!

Panic, yes...and why do you suppose they panic in the first place?

 

[MikeFerrara]

BTW Don, I was glancing through an old PADI DM course text that I found laying around the house and the text suggests that divemasters request divers to surface with 500 psi, though they don't really give much justification for that specific number.

500 psi in an AL 80 is probably an adequate reserve for many dives especially if you base your calcs on a 60 FPM ascent.