What if Shearwater made a purely recreational computer???

[KenGordon]

But isn't the hardware the costly bit? There's no reason two different software platforms on a dive computer should have different prices.

No. The hardware is lost in the noise compared to fixed costs such as rent, salaries, design, warehousing, marketing etc.

This is why low volume consumer electronics are so hard to do.

The reason the two computers would have different prices would be a marketing one. If the punters expect coping with helium has a value then take it away and they expect to pay less.

Another thing probably going unconsidered is the opportunity cost. At small volumes the screens are a major problem. I don't know how they have solved that at Shearwater but guess they may have a stockpile. Sell your stockpile at a reduced price point and now you have to cope with getting another screen. Did it pay off?

 

[Centrals]

My reference to babysitting diver was not made to imply that if you use a computer you are being baby sat. It was made to reference the degree of dependence divers have on the computer for ALL aspects of the dive. The computer is not a substitute for understanding. Those that have moved on beyond the basic skills have become not so dependent on the computer to tell them when their gass is low, or when they have exceeded PPO2, or have crossed the NDL limit. There are many that do not use computers at all and use depth gages , watch/bottom timers ect. Just like there are those that plan a dive and those that turn that over to the puter.

With the dives you have and the diving you do, you should be the first to understand the intent of the comment.

No I do not understand your intention except the condescending tune!
I am pretty sure Shearwater would give out warning if you are over the ndl and gone to deco mode. So any diver who still remember the definition of ndl would act accordingly ie ascend. It doesn't matter what kind of computer strapped on his arm or in consul.
Degree of dependence divers have on the computer for ALL aspects of diving!!! What are they?
My Aladin Pro Air only give ndl, depth, dive time and logged 20 dives. It will calculate simple deco if necessary. It does not even do nitrox!!!!! What else do I need? Nitrox mode!

Shearwater has more bells and whistles than most rec divers would require or understand in their diving.

I need my ageing Aladin to baby sit me because I need all the data to execute the dive. I would not question anything that was being displayed on the screen ie. time, depth and ndl. Do you think I would dive any differently if there is a Shearwater strapped on my right arm?

Could you enlightening me why a Shearwater computer would make my rec dive any different from my back up Oceanic Veo 180?

 

[abscuba]

The shearwater does have some bells and whistles but they are guided towards the tech crowd. The computer will not only tell you your ndl it tells u your CNS clock, dil partial pressure, you can adjust the gradient factor, excellent rebreather support, it does have color warnings for high ppo2 or if there is a more optimal gas mix to switch to. The have added the recreational mode and the compass both are nice to have but tech divers buy it for the other features and that it is bullet proof. Other than the rec mode and the compass the rest of the features are not useful for a recreational diver. To make it useful to them now you have to build in lock outs, most have some kind of buzzer or beeper, many are adding free dive modes, and ai computers are popular for recreational computers. By the time this is all done it is a completely different computer that is set up with an entirely different philosophy of their other systems.

 

[DevonDiver]

I'd imagine that making a recreational machine would also bring about more liability.

On a tech machine, using open-source algorithms, there's little liability. The user is responsible for setting the parameters (i.e. GF hi/lo).

If a user opted to dive on GF99, then liability falls on them. Shearwater direct that users research and understand the algorithm they use....

When Shearwater created the 'rec mode', THEY had to select what THEY believed was the appropriate algorithm parameters. No more user responsibility. Liability shifts to Shearwater. If someone gets bent on rec mode, then the lawyers can put the GF pre-set decision in the legal cross-hairs...

Go one step further.... with a DEDICATED rec machine... and every predefined parameter opens the door to liability.

Rec divers want machines that keep them safe. They want abdicated responsibility. If they get bent, they want to blame someone...

Just look at Suunto.... so much enforced conservatism to offset the risk of legal repercussions. You can't blame them...

Build a DEDICATED rec machine and you'd have to presume zero decompression theory understanding in your customers. The manufacturer takes total responsibility for the parameters that now have to be hard-coded.

As it stands, Shearwater make dedicated technical diving instruments. They are clear about that... and able to write caveats in their manuals that strictly offset liability. Of course, rec divers are free to purchase and use Shearwater technical computers.... but they have to accept the responsibility and liability of doing that.

Shearwater would need a very good financial return in order to expose themselves to that extra liability. Even then, they might follow Suunto's lead and start making things very, very conservative... and then those rec divers would start bitching and moaning... and Shearwater would lose reputation...

 

[Sevenrider860]

.... and it'd be no more desirable than a Suunto Eon Steel.... a flop....

Are you using "flop" to describe the computer, the product financials...or how it fits on the wrist?

Prior to January 1st of this year the shop I am associated with carried the Suunto line. We sold every Eon Steel we could get in. I am not sure if that is indicative of how well the computer is selling globally, but there was a post by another individual that indicated it was selling quite well in his dive shop too. It is the only color Suunto model, the integrated compass is one of the best electronic compasses I have seen, and they finally "hard coded" the gas pod codes. These computers are bought by recreational divers who have big budgets...and there is a market for these individuals. None of the individuals who bought the Eon Steel at my shop perform any dives where a Zoop would not have worked just as well and we don't "push" the more expensive products, some people just tend to gravitate to them.

 

[boulderjohn]

I read in another thread that less than 2% of rec. divers progress into tec. diving. Let's call it 2% for sake of argument. I'm making up some other figures for sake of discussion. For sake of argument, let's say Shearwater sells a computer to 1/2 of all tec. divers in a region in the United States that has 10,000 divers. Out of 10,000 divers, 1 in 100 buys a Shearwater computer, so 100 Petrels/Perdixes.
...

If I did my math right, after a few years the Shearwater customer base is roughly 50/50 tec./rec. .

I don't think anyone has any idea what percentage goes into tech. I have used 2% as a wild guess in the past, hopefully clearly representing it as a guess. I don't think it is nearly as high as 2% in the area in which I live. That's a small part of the overall market.

The dive shop where I work has just agreed to become a Shearwater dealer, with the first shipment arriving in a week or so. There was a lot of indecision about this, because the tech market is so small and because the shop was already a Liquivision dealer. I was not at all involved in the negotiations with Shearwater, but as I understand it, our shop representative expressed concerns because of the small tech market, and Shearwater told him that they sell most of the Petrels to the recreational market. Assuming everything I said is accurate, they are already past the 50/50 market with the computer they are making now.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Based on my career experience in technology sales, hardware gets cheaper by the minute. It's the intelligence built into the software that gives the hardware value. Lots of products will embed a full copy of their software, but disable certain functionality unless you pay for the unlock key. That is the easy way distribute product and allow for built in enhancement.

That makes sense in a scenario where there is a low-end "copy" that is a subset of functionality of the "full copy." But is that true when it comes to dive computer software? I may be wrong, but I suspect that what's under the hood of Shearwater's Nitrox Recreational Mode and what's under the hood of their Tech Mode are not all that different. Dealing with helium doesn't add that much complexity to the software.

Presently, Shearwater offers the user a choice of either Rec mode or Tech mode, with no difference in price, and I think that makes sense. We are still getting the same high-quality engineering, hardware, awesome customer service, and software of roughly the same complexity, and so I think the price should be no different.

 

[drrich2]

BoulderJohn:

I don't think anyone has any idea what percentage goes into tech. I have used 2% as a wild guess in the past, hopefully clearly representing it as a guess. I don't think it is nearly as high as 2% in the area in which I live. That's a small part of the overall market.

Thanks for the clarification. I wish we did have a good idea as to the percentage, though even then the shades of gray would make it hard to call. If someone takes a course in deco. procedures and advanced nitrox, and does a rare deco. dive (e.g. the Oriskany wreck) but 95% of his diving is plain old rec. diving, where do we put him?

Which puts another spin on things; rec. divers are rec. divers. A number of tec. divers are mostly rec. divers.

Richard.

 

[NAM001]

Ok the box is opened. >et me say I am no shearwater expert. But here goes. There is not a bell or whistle(literally) to say you are in deco. the screen has a section that says next stop and for how long. Ie 30 ft 4 min.

Degree of dependence. How do you know if you are too deep. the bell goes off. How do you know if your air is low the whistle goes off. How do I know if I am assending too fast the gong goes off. Too many new divers use the computer as a substitute for monitoring their gauges. That leaves them being baby sat by a computer. Its not about knowing what to do when you get to NDL it is how you are finding out you are at NDL, or low on air or ascending too fast. . A diver that is aware is checking from time to time of his air supply time to surface and time to ndl depth and more. When you become comfortable in routinely monitoring your stuff you no longer NEED the baby sitter to catch you when you fall. NEED is the key word here. Having as a backup is not the same as having a NEED. Your aladin PRO of yours, I know nothing about it, but if it gives you the basic information you need to conduct your dive then it is a tool and not a replacement for situational awareness. You have chose to do ratio deco or some other form of calculation method, and as such it sounds like you have the tool that is adaquate to serve your purpose. I am totaly lost as to why you think you are a baby sat diver. If it is because you think that my position is that anyone that uses a computer is being baby sat, then that is an incorrect assumption to go on. You most probably would not dive any differently with a shearwater of someting like it on your arm, because you dont turn your dive over to the computer, you use the computer for sensor measurement to make decisions on the depth and time values it gives you. If you are diving nitrox sith an air computer and you have the requsite skills to do that then congrats, cause you don't need all the technology that the 99% of dives need. I my self would not dive an air computer with nitrox but that is my choice based on what i think is prudent. I support diving with computers. it is a fantastic log of what happened, and invaluable if you need a chamber ride. I let my puter tell me how long i have, then i evaluate if the data is reasonable and act accordingly. I like the no audible sounds. Ther is nothing like being in a group of a dozen on a boat and the jazz band starts tuning up near the end of the dives and whistles start going off. And no one knows whose puter is screaming.
My strong support of shear water is not so much the technical aspect of it as much as it is the ease of use 2 button 1 scroll and 1 select. I dont need a manual to operate it. It has no sounds. Those things are valuable to me and worthless to those that never look at their computer till it sounds off.

No I do not understand your intention except the condescending tune!
I am pretty sure Shearwater would give out warning if you are over the ndl and gone to deco mode. So any diver who still remember the definition of ndl would act accordingly ie ascend. It doesn't matter what kind of computer strapped on his arm or in consul.
Degree of dependence divers have on the computer for ALL aspects of diving!!! What are they?
My Aladin Pro Air only give ndl, depth, dive time and logged 20 dives. It will calculate simple deco if necessary. It does not even do nitrox!!!!! What else do I need? Nitrox mode!

Shearwater has more bells and whistles than most rec divers would require or understand in their diving.

I need my ageing Aladin to baby sit me because I need all the data to execute the dive. I would not question anything that was being displayed on the screen ie. time, depth and ndl. Do you think I would dive any differently if there is a Shearwater strapped on my right arm?

Could you enlightening me why a Shearwater computer would make my rec dive any different from my back up Oceanic Veo 180?

 

[JohnnyC]

I'm curious where people think Shearwater would be able to cut cost? They still have the standard hard expenses of running a business, you still have to pay your employees, you still have to pay the power bill, you still have to pay for parts. The cost of manufacture is what it is. Molds cost money, machine time costs money. Even if they were to make a computer that ONLY had rec mode, the software is still written, and the software engineers still have to develop the software that runs their whole computer line, so it's not like you can nickel and dime that.

Where do people expect to save money even if Shearwater did release a rec-only computer? And why do people think that it would be smart move on Shearwaters part? The physical device isn't getting cheaper and still maintaining form factor, the software side isn't getting cheaper, where exactly do people want Shearwater to cheap out on to produce a recreational only computer? You can't make money by giving everything away, and that seems to be what people want Shearwater to do.