What happened?

[Kevrumbo]

WTF?? So now we get to read about how safe and in control your extensive DIR training made you and your team for deep air?? Oh phalease just put that trip report somewhere else.

No . . .simply that there were some minor problems that almost snowballed and I'm not ashamed to relate them first hand to what I already know is a better way.

 

[OneBrightGator]

Hey I'm actually saying the minutia might be a bit bigger than you imagine. GUE used to teach 30/30 was the gas to use from 80 to 120ft. Unpon further reflection and maybe some accidents at ppO2s of 1.4, they revised their guidelines to 100ft. All fair enough.

But some people were trained the old way. They still use it the old way. That one facet of their dive is not exactly DIR as proscribed by the grand training council. Is 20ft enough to throw them under the bus? Not really IMO.

Top handle reels just don't work as well as "sidehandles". RTodd laid out some issues. My cave instructor had a few more tidbits and we compared and contrasted in cave class too. I came to the (theoretically educated) conclusion that sidehandles work better. So yes they are the DIR solution. If I had a buddy who just had to use a tophandle I don't think that one element would keep me from diving with them. At least not to start with and on an easy dive.

So what are some of the other "DIR gray areas"?

Um... things change, including DIR. If you don't change then you're not DIR.

I agree side handle reels are better then top handles, but the reasons listed boil down to the user and are easy to overcome. They changed the rule because people were toxing. So if the reel fouls, you abort the dive, if Murphy finds you on 30/30 at 120' the dive aborts you. The top handle is not DIR, you say?

 

[rjack321]

No . . .simply that there were some minor problems that almost snowballed and I'm not ashamed to relate them first hand to what I already know is a better way.

Your supposed DIR dives were way outside the possible gray zone with a END of 180-190ft so they don't belong in the DIR forums. Feel free to post them elsewhere, I'm sure everyone can learn from your problems and mistakes.

 

[Kevrumbo]

Your supposed DIR dives were way outside the possible gray zone with a END of 180-190ft so they don't belong in the DIR forums. Feel free to post them elsewhere, I'm sure everyone can learn from your problems and mistakes.

We all know about the gross circumstances behind such deep air accidents as what happened to Bernie Chowdery, or the infamous U-who Rouse Tragedy. We can also learn and appreciate the warning signs & treacherous subtleties experienced by others including myself, who made a decision to make a deep air dive despite espousing DIR Philosophy & Practice. It was a judgment call, and if you can't sympathize with that --well then so be it. I stand by it and can take the admonishment of this Peer Group. . .

If this provokes y'all to indignant contempt here in the "DIR Oracle", then I will post the report elsewhere.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

If this provokes y'all to indignant contempt here in the "DIR Oracle", then I will post the report elsewhere.

Kev,

Speaking for myself only, I don't think anyone is feeling "indignant contempt".

The bottom line is that this forum exists to 'define what is DIR and why it is DIR' for divers who want to learn more about it.

Yes, concepts can be questioned, but at some point it gets down to X is acceptable and Y is not - within this one specific way of looking at things.

Things that fall clearly into "Y" - that is, non-DIR acts etc. - are not supposed to be posted in this forum. It's the objective of the group leads to ensure that the forum signal to noise ratio is maintained down at a dull roar.



We're all aware that there are environments such as the sunken fleet at Bikini Atoll or the japanese navy at Truk Lagoon where, due to absence of helium, if you dive the deeper wrecks at all you do so on air.

Many guys might do just that, given an opportunity to achieve such remote goals.

But the point is that doing so is clearly not a DIR option, and thus - once this has been adequately defined - reports about doing so are not supposed to be in this forum.

It really doesn't have anything to do with "indignant contempt".

I'm glad you enjoyed the dives, and I'll read your reports with interest in whatever other forum you wind up posting them. One day I hope to make it to Truk...but given my financial situation, and a few other issues, it won't be any time soon. Reports from guys who have been there are how I vicariously enjoy those wrecks.

Regards,

Doc

 

[rainman_02]

Deep Air -- even "lessons learned" is not a topic of DIR discussion beyond "it is not DIR and this is why."

ESPECIALLY if you say this:

who made a decision to make a deep air dive despite espousing DIR Philosophy & Practice. It was a judgment call

So, you have plenty of DIR training and you understand the various arguments...yet you just COMPLETELY IGNORE it and call it a "judgement call???" That sure isn't any DIR or "thinking diver" mentality I was taught.


However, the discussion between say 25/25 and 30/30 can be a very interesting one...especially since the "no less than 30% helium" rule is crap...that seems arbitrary and capricious.

 

[Kevrumbo]

Deep Air -- even "lessons learned" is not a topic of DIR discussion beyond "it is not DIR and this is why."
ESPECIALLY if you say this:
So, you have plenty of DIR training and you understand the various arguments...yet you just COMPLETELY IGNORE it and call it a "judgement call???" That sure isn't any DIR or "thinking diver" mentality I was taught.
. . .

Yep it was a judgment call --Warm Water, no current, excellent viz & water clarity, staying in the Cavern Zone (ie. open cargo holds and large engine room skylight hatches with easy egress)-- these mitigating factors induced me to believe the risk was acceptable (with the added experience of having done this particular dive before on the San Francisco Maru in Truk 2004).

NOTHING WAS COMPLETELY "IGNORED".

Simply a compromise Risk-Benefit vs. Risk-Aversive weighting decision, discussed fully and with concurrence from my Dive Buddy.

(Thanks Doc Intrepid for your fair objectivity above . . . )

 

[lamont]

locking...

after i get some caffeine in me i'll try to figure out what to do about this thread...

EDIT: i think i've wasted enough time this morning debating with myself what to do about this thread... just leaving it locked... i think everyone has stated their viewpoint... i'm tempted to just blow away all the deep air discussion, but there were a few posts (e.g. doc intrepid's) that seem useful to keep...