DIR- GUE What does GUE mindset mean?

[overthinking_diver]

Later in cave class with a non-GUE instructor, it was explained to me in at least a couple of instances that there are different ways to do something, and some divers will do it this way while others do it that way. He explained the pros and cons of each way. I found it ever so slightly unsettling, yet I greatly appreciated it. It's good to understand that if some divers believe there is a marginal benefit to doing it one way, other divers may see a similar marginal benefit to doing it a different way. The instructor would not have told me there is more than one way to do it if one way had clearly been better than the other. I am beginning to understand that the further one progresses along the cave or tech path, the more one will encounter things that are amenable to doing different ways, each with its pros and cons.

I see what you're saying, thanks for the correction!

 

[NW Dive Dawg]

NW Dive Dawg:
So if a certified GUE diver chooses to sometimes dive a non GUE equipment configuration......or dive SOLO....... then are there any repercussions or "pushback" from other GUE divers or the GUE organization?

Does this have anything to do with the "GUE mindset" that is the topic of this thread? It's a good question, and it has been discussed before. But I have difficulty relating it to the "mindset" topic.

Of course it has to do with the mindset topic. A "mindset" is an established and fixed attitude held by a person or persons... or basically....... "A mind that is set". I admittedly don't really know much or care at all about GUE.......but since the subject was posted here in SB, I was just curious as to whether or not they have a have "our way or the highway" attitude with their members.....and particularly those that choose to dive solo. But then again, it's their club so my take is that they have a complete right to their mindset and their rules as long as those mindsets and rules never interfere with the rights of others who don't want to be in the club or have the same mindset.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Okay, I think I see, @NW Dive Dawg. So, the question might be phrased: What might be the repercussions, if any, for a GUE-trained diver who does not have the "GUE mindset" (if there is such a thing) yet who wants to dive with other GUE-trained divers?

I think previous replies have homed in on the "GUE mindset" being a team-oriented approach to diving. So, solo diving would be the antithesis of that. Definitely not the same mindset.

I was just curious as to whether or not they have a have "our way or the highway" attitude with their members.....and particularly those that choose to dive solo. But then again, it's their club so my take is that they have a complete right to their mindset and their rules as long as those mindsets and rules never interfere with the rights of others who don't want to be in the club or have the same mindset.

First, I think we have to consider what is "their club" and who are "their members"? There is no GUE "membership" simply as a result of taking a course. You get a cert card if you pass, just like with any other training agency. There is no membership attached to that. No oath of loyalty. LOL. There are, however, some local dive clubs that affiliate themselves with GUE, but I would guess only a small minority of GUE-trained divers join such a club. So, it can be clubby if a diver wants that but it doesn't have to be clubby.

Unless I misunderstand, you seem to have an uncommon scenario in mind: A GUE-trained diver who, despite that training, does not have the team-diving mindset, and yet, still desires to dive with other GUE-trained divers who presumably do have the team-diving mindset.

GUE could revoke your certifications if they wanted to…

Judging from anecdotes I've read in other threads, it seems this possibility is pretty remote in most cases. Here's my thinking.

At one extreme end of the range of scenarios, I can see that if a GUE instructor is blatantly and openly flouting standards, such as by solo diving and then mouthing off about it, there surely would be repercussions. Instructors do serve as the public face of their agencies, and that isn't limited to GUE. That said, I have read in other threads (hearsay, that is) that there have been instances of well-known GUE-trained divers, even some instructors, quietly solo diving now and then. Maybe the moral of the story is that if you want to continue keeping at least one foot in the GUE water, so to speak, don't be so stupid as to mouth off about flouting standards.

At the other extreme, I can't imagine any repercussions if Joe Diver, a nobody in the GUE world who just happened to take Fundies, goes solo diving or uses some non-standard equipment. Of course, if some other GUE-trained diver doesn't want to dive with Joe because he heard Joe dives solo now and then, that's their prerogative, but Joe probably accepts that possibility. Then again, it is possible that there are other GUE-trained divers who aren't bothered by what Joe does at other times, so long as Joe sticks to the standards and the mindset of team diving when they're diving together. Speaking for myself, I will dive with anyone I feel is a safe diver if we agree on the rules of the dive, and diving solo when not with me does not by itself make that person an unsafe diver in my judgment.

In the middle of the range of scenarios, I can envision someone who frequently joins other GUE-trained divers, maybe on outings with a local club. If word gets around that that diver flouts standards, that diver may be shunned by the people he wants to dive with. Again, the diver knows that and accepts that, and nobody is forcing anything on them. I do believe it is possible to keep one foot in the GUE pool and one foot out, but diving regularly with a local club would seem to make it harder to maintain the balance.

In sum, it's up to the individual to what extent they want to participate in GUE things--how "clubby" they want their diving to be. The deeper you get into it--the more you take advantage of being able to seamlessly buddy up with other GUE-trained divers (anywhere in the world)--the more you had better adhere to standards if you want to continue. It occurs to me that this may be self-regulating, and there is no need for any policing: The deeper a diver gets into GUE stuff, the less the diver wants to deviate from standards. If you're just Joe Diver, and sometimes you dive this way but sometimes you dive that way, and you don't intend to join any local club, nobody cares what you do, except maybe some of the people who could be Joe's prospective buddies. But if you're doing highly technical exploration or project dives, you probably firmly believe in the merits of team diving over solo diving. You almost certainly don't secretly harbor some other mindset.

 

[BlueTrin]

I am not sure why it matters if follow the GUE SOP when diving with GUE divers and if you follow another SOP with other divers or when alone.

I guess someone could argue that there is a risk of mixing SOP but surely that’s a tangential argument?

 

[grantmac]

Locally there are GUE charters, where you are expected to use GUE techniques and equipment configuration. Otherwise nobody is keeping score with your other diving.

 

[PfcAJ]

I am not sure why it matters if follow the GUE SOP when diving with GUE divers and if you follow another SOP with other divers or when alone.

I guess someone could argue that there is a risk of mixing SOP but surely that’s a tangential argument?

It depends on what it is. It’s not always binary.

What SOPs are you not doin? Not analyzing gas? Deep air? A brass boltsnap (the horror)? Some things make me raise an eyebrow more than others.

It’s okay to not want to dive with people who don’t align with your way of thinking. You don’t have to dive with everyone under the Sun.

 

[BlueTrin]

It depends on what it is. It’s not always binary.

What SOPs are you not doin? Not analyzing gas? Deep air? A brass boltsnap (the horror)? Some things make me raise an eyebrow more than others.

It’s okay to not want to dive with people who don’t align with your way of thinking. You don’t have to dive with everyone under the Sun.

Just to clarify, I am not objecting to someone having preferences. You cannot force someone to want to dive with you and that’s totally normal. I would never advocate lying or hiding facts to a teammate.

However, I would find it weird if someone has his cert cancelled for things that he would do following another agency SOP when with another group of non-GUE divers, which is what someone implied here could happen.

Examples:
- solo diving
- diving weak Nitrox between 30 and 40m/using a non GUE standard gas
- using an air fill at a training lake above 12m
- closing middle manifold first if there was a failure
- etc feel free to add to the list

 

[jborg]

Why is this a hypothetical that keeps popping up? Has anyone ever heard of such a thing happening? Could PADI revoke my OW cert if I skip doing a safety stop?

 

[Lorenzoid]

However, I would find it weird if someone has his cert cancelled for things that he would do following another agency SOP when with another group of divers, which is what someone implied here could happen.

And have there been any instances of a cert being revoked that any of us knows of? Maybe it seems weird because it virtually never happens. I speculated in my post above that unless it were an instructor or someone way visible in GUE circles, openly flouting some major tenet (say, posting video of it), it would draw little attention.

It also occurs to me that there are GUE instructors who teach for multiple agencies. I don't know precisely how they reconcile different agencies' SOPs when teaching; maybe they use their brains and simply apply what they believe safety requires or doesn't require under the circumstances.

 

[BlueTrin]

And have there been any instances of a cert being revoked that any of us knows of? Maybe it seems weird because it virtually never happens. I speculated in my post above that unless it were an instructor or someone way visible in GUE circles, openly flouting some major tenet (say, posting video of it), it would draw little attention.

It also occurs to me that there are GUE instructors who teach for multiple agencies. I don't know precisely how they reconcile different agencies' SOPs when teaching; maybe they use their brains and simply apply what they believe safety requires or doesn't require under the circumstances.

I don’t think it would happen, I am just wondering because people keep repeating this and it’s not shot down immediately.

It seems illogical to me and impossible to enforce because of multiple agencies having different rules.

Also there is the question of what’s the official stance, regardless of whether it’s enforced or not.