What do I need to do different??

[Cave Diver]

I just don't see why you would rather try to win a stupid argument on a forum when you could be diving. There are lots of people who disagree with how I dive, and I couldn't care less I know why I dive like I dive, and that's good enough for me.

I didn't see Rob's inquiry as trying to win an argument so much as trying to understand a position. I know why I dive like I do too, but if someone is insistent on another way I'm going to at least explore it a bit and see if there is merit to it. That's how I see this conversation - an exploration looking for alternate viewpoints or explanations.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Thank you, John. That's exactly it. I'm genuinely interested in knowing what Tobin's solution is. He states there is one, so let's hear it. I may not adopt it because it doesn't fit the type of diving I do, but I'd still like to know.

 

[Dive-aholic]

I'd guess that not running a primary reel breaks Sheck's basic rules.

I run a primary reel in every cave in which the permanent line does not start within a safe exit distance of open water.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

Apologies then, seemed to me like you made it public because you wanted to try to prove a point. Not that I take issue with that, but in this case it does seem to me like two very smart people who are both very good divers who do different types of diving that make them use different setups.

I do wonder, how many fatalities have been caused by this problem? How many cave diver fatalities have been caused by this problem? How many sidemount cave diver fatalities have been caused by this problem?

 

[Dive-aholic]

No point to prove. I posted my question a couple of times on a couple of other threads and it was basically ignored. Rather than continue to discuss an off topic issue, and since I wasn't getting an answer, I started a new thread to see if I could get an answer from anyone else. I'm pretty innovative with gear configurations, but I can't figure out how I can make myself neutral in basic gear without the use of my wing. I'm not claiming to be grossly over weighted. That's not the case at all. At most I'm 5 or 6 lbs over weighted with empty cylinders.

I also chose to post this question in T2T so it would receive somewhat limited exposure.

Also, another reason I chose to start a separate thread was because the other threads got caught up in arguing too many different issues and this lead to a lot of confusion about who was arguing what. I believe I was accused of stating the Bat wing doesn't have enough lift. I never stated that and do not believe it. If anything, it probably has too much lift. My issue with the Bat wing is that when it is inflated to offset the gas in larger cylinders, it is no longer streamlined, at least it isn't in the videos I've seen. But that's a moot point because it is what it is.

 

[ucfdiver]

I run a primary reel in every cave in which the permanent line does not start within a safe exit distance of open water.

I bet the people who died because of not following that rule felt the same way.

I'm too lazy to run one at JB, but I don't feel the need to make up some bull**** rule about a safe exit...I'll call it a calculated risk, but that's as much grabbing for straws as I'll do.

 

[denisegg]

This is interesting because I have the same problem, yet I am buoyant in just my drysuit which is a Pinnacle Black Ice like Rob's and Aeroskin undergarments which are neutral. When I put on my nomad express for sidemounts with one 1lb weight on each shoulder for trim weight, LM 21 watt and 2 Intova 4 watt backups, and 2 Faber HP100's, I sink like a rock. This past weekend at Madison after our cave dive I hung out in the basin practicing some drills and only had 800psi in each tank when I surfaced and was still negative enough to have to inflate the wing some so I am not under weighted, even at the end of the dive.
On my last dive at JB, my wing dump valve got stuck in the open position but I was able to inflate my dry suit enough to exit the cave and even hang out in the basin a while messing with it, so it had enough lift to get me neutral.
About a year ago while I was diving the HP100's in backmount with the same drysuit (no extra weight), my drysuit flooded up to my knees because I didn't have the zipper completely zipped (duh, newbie drysuit wearer) and was trying some stupid new quick release for my lp hose which popped out of my wing inflator but I was able to swim the weight of my doubles about 20ft to the surface and orally inflate the wing, so I have experienced a situation where I had a failure point on both inflation devices at the same time.
I would love to be neutral also but think that AL80's would make me too buoyant.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I respect Tobin. I really do, he's a smart guy. He's built a good business that sells very high quality products. I don't think I've ever met someone who has an issue with anything he sells, and people rave about his customer service. I also appreciate someone with unwavering conviction and the ability to speak their mind. However, as much as I respect Tobin, I have never once been about to submerge for a dive and thought "wait...what would Tobin do?"

I have ... but I was diving with Tobin at the time ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)