What do I need to do different??

[Dive-aholic]

Tobin, there's no bait. You made a statement and you're not backing it up. It's that simple. if you want to make it more than it is, that's your choice. But don't put this off on me. I think I've provided plenty of information. In fact, I'll even reiterate it here all in one post in your very own format.

I dive a Pinnacle Black Ice compressed neoprene dry suit with thin undergarments because the merino wool keeps me sufficiently warm, sometimes a little too warm. With no air in the suit in a vertical position I sink enough in the suit to submerge my face. So I'd say it's pretty close to neutral with me wearing it. I also wear a 7mm Pinnacle dry suit hood.

I dive caves. I'm very conservative with my gas management. I only dive 1/3s if I am in a team of 3, which is very rare. I'm usually solo and diving 1/4s or more conservative. My usual cylinders are Faber LP 95s filled to 3600 psi and Worthington LP 85s filled to 3600 psi.

My RMV is in the .35-.45 range.

Profiles for my usual dives are usually in the 80-90 FFW depth range. It can vary. It is a cave after all and I have to go where the floor and ceiling makes me go.

Most of my dives are 1.5-2 hours long with 20-30 minutes of decompression obligation. During these dives I also have an AL80 stage cylinder. My decompression cylinder is dropped at the opening to the cave so it shouldn't factor into the equation.

I do own a rebreather now. It's a KISS GEM so it's light and I just plumb it into my usual sidemount rig, so it actually adds a little weight to my current configuration. It also allows me to do 2.5-3 hour long dives with the appropriate decompression obligation. Nothing else about my kit is changed when I'm diving the rebreather. I simply add the rebreather to the kit.

My gear includes an original Dive Rite Nomad (the 50lb lift version) with the wing cinched down enough to only provide 30-35 lbs of lift, 2lb trim weights on each shoulder (I don't believe in putting air in the feet of my dry suit to trim myself out), Dive Rite fins, a LM 21watt HID, a 150' safety spool, 150' Ralph Hood safety reel, a 3.5 inch SS knife, a Trilobite, a z-knife, appropriate line markers, wet notes, spare mask, 2 Intova 4.7 watt back up lights, an Intova 4.7 watt mask light, an Ultra Nova Intova back up light, 4-5 100' jump spools, a 500' Halcyon Explorer reel, and a small survey slate.

So, no bait, no tricks. I'm sincerely asking you to answer my question because I don't know what I can change about my configuration for the type of diving that I do so that I am neutrally buoyant with empty cylinders.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Tobin, there's no bait.

You state you won't / can't change suits and won't / can't change cylinders and then demand I provide a solution.

Right, noooo bait.

I still find diving over weighted ill advised and advocating such practices on a public forum unwise.

Tobin

 

[Dive-aholic]

What suit do you recommend I change to? What cylinders. The cylinder chart I use shows all the cylinders to be anywhere from neutral to 2lbs negative. I am much more negative than that. No, I won't begin using Faber FX149s. That's overkill for what I need and they are too large and trim poorly for sidemount.

Keep going back to the over weighted argument. I never advocated it. I don't wear any additional weight. Believe it or not, some people will just be over weighted in technical gear regardless of what they do.

Just admit it, Tobin. You won't answer because there is no answer.

 

[TSandM]

Rob, why are you baiting one of the most thoughtful and patient people on this board?

If you are truly neutral in a dry suit with undergarments in water in the high 60's, you are unusual. If you dive such a suit with steel tanks, you are overweighted. You may decide that the risks associated with doing that are okay with you; many people make risk assessments in diving that don't fly with other divers. You are an extremely experienced diver and instructor, and you have a database for yourself that may make you decide that things that don't fit the typical rules are okay for you. I know, for example, that you have decided, after doing solid research, that you are okay with breaking some of Sheck's basic rules. Does this mean it's okay to advocate that everybody do that?

Tobin tries to write posts that stay within the broad guidelines that work for everybody. If you fall outside the envelope by virtue of body habitus (as you and I appear to do, on different ends of the spectrum) and by virtue of experience, it may be valid for you to make decisions for your own diving that wouldn't be advisable for most people. Tobin tries to keep his advice applicable to the broad spectrum of divers.

There are quite a few folks who appear from time to time on ScubaBoard, whose advice is at best questionable and at worst frankly dangerous. Neither you nor Tobin falls into that category, and it really hurts me to see two people whose diving expertise I value, at odds with one another that is verging on completely impolite.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Lynne, I'm not baiting anyone. Tobin has insisted that I am doing something wrong. I'm simply asking him to back up his statement and tell me how to fix it. If he can't, then he needs to retract his statement.

And I do not break some of Sheck's basic rules. I don't know where you got that idea. While there is one thing that I do may be questionable, under the current standards of one of the agencies, I am still within guidelines.

 

[Blackwood]

there is no answer.

I maintain 14-15% body fat (just on the right side of healthy for my demographic). Based on your buoyancy characteristics, I imagine you either have very dense bones or are in the sub 10% BF range, or both.

Easy solution: eat some ****ing pizza!

 

[Cave Diver]

FWIW, I can sink in my compressed neoprene dry suit without any ballast. Getting a thicker dry suit or heavier undergarments will only overheat me. I'm almost overheated in my current exposure protection.

So what's the solution?

Sounds like you need to add a couple of extra pounds of fluff like the rest of us have done and you wont have those problems.

As far as Tobin goes, I think for the most part his advice is sound and it gives a goal to shoot for, especially for divers who are new to the whole buoyancy/ballast game. He has to recognize though, that there will be some people who fall outside of the curve. You're obviously one of those people. Take the concept, apply your knowledge and experience to it and use the method that works for you.

 

[ucfdiver]

And I do not break some of Sheck's basic rules. I don't know where you got that idea. While there is one thing that I do may be questionable, under the current standards of one of the agencies, I am still within guidelines.

I'd guess that not running a primary reel breaks Sheck's basic rules.

 

[TSandM]

Rob, the bottom line is that some of us believe that diving when you are seriously and unfixably negative is dangerous. You want to do certain dives that you have decided require that you dive in that condition. This is what I was referring to as making a risk assessment for yourself. You COULD do those dives with aluminum tanks, by doing setup dives and staging additional gas; you don't want to do that, so you dive big steels and dive negative.

You have already listed the reasons why you can't or don't want to change any of the items of your configuration. That configuration leaves you very, very negative at the beginning of a dive. Some people don't want to do that, and would either eschew the dives or figure out how to do them differently.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

In sidemount you could drop a tank if both of your sources of buoyancy failed, or you could breathe them down some...my Fabers leave me underweighted if I breathe them to empty like I would in an emergency sharing air from max penetration.

In the one out of air situation I encountered, I had so much air for us to share, it was stupid to worry. However, the empty tanks left the diver so bouyant, I had to get on top and push them off the ceiling and help them vent all the air, and I think we borrowed a rock to help out.

There is danger to being anything but neutral. But, it seems to be a low risk (why is it not a guideline? Apparently, it doesn't kill many people) and I'm willing to take that risk to avoid doing lots of setup dives.

Rob, what I was getting at with my WWTD crack was what Lynne said: I don't get why you care. You and Tobin do different diving. He has a valid point, you have valid reasons for diving differently. I just don't see why you would rather try to win a stupid argument on a forum when you could be diving. There are lots of people who disagree with how I dive, and I couldn't care less I know why I dive like I dive, and that's good enough for me.